'Frame substitution recursion attempt aborting after multiple attempts on file'

[mackinnonfilmmaking]

Hi everyone, 

I've got a problem that I think others have had, I'm trying to use MXF video files in a project I'm working on, the quality of the video is the main priority (Audio has been recorded separately so there's no audio on the MXF video files). I've already tried using MP4 but the quality has reduced significantly so that's a no-go. After importing the MXF files, the error sign lights up, and 'Frame substitution recursion attempt aborting after multiple attempts on file' is the issue every time. I've imported it under different Video rendering and playback options but no luck there. Each time I've tried importing the MXF files, the number of errors alternates, sometimes there are loads, other times there are less. Does anyone know what to do to fix it? 

[MARAND MEDIA]

Yeah I don't think the issue is hardware capabilities. Sucks that there has been no progress on this issue from Adobe.

I actually tried troubleshooting again today with some files in a new project right on my internal drive in my M1 MacMini with multiple later versions of PP CC and still had the same errors. 

Sucks because there are some definite benefits to later versions of PP, but I did have less of these errors with older versions. 

Adobe (@Kevin-Monahan), can you just recreate the issue on your end and start troubleshooting the issue? I'd be willing to send some files if needed. if you can't recreate the issue, I'd like to repeat the process on my side and see when/if the issue pops up.

[Tricklarock73]

YUPPPPP! That's what we are all doing - LIVE TESTING A FREAKING BETA VERSION - while THEY get paid for it!!! What do we get? Lost money and clients, while they get paid. Do they offer us a discount or anything of the sort... NOPE! Thanks again Adobe, appreciate it!

[Jeff Bellune]

Try re-importing some troublesome clips via the media browser, but this time use Ingest and the ProRes422 ingest preset. (NB: the first clip will go faster if you have the media encoder already open.)

As you work with the transcoded, ingested footage, does the error still appear?

It would be great if all codecs on all systems behaved themselves no matter what. It sucks to have to transcode on ingest. But if it works......

[georgem31136894]

Thank you for the reply but transcoding footage is not the answer I'm looking for.  I'm aware that Premiere handles ProRes just fine.  

Transcoding footage adds time to workflows on both ingest and finishing.  In some cases, this is not ideal, particularly with clients who ask for same-day shoot and edit turnarounds, etc.  

 I understand processing slowdowns will happen due to dealing with temporal compression, etc.   But my real hope for a Premiere fix is to work with camera original Canon MXF footage without errors -- like I can do in other software packages.   

[Jeff Bellune]

So it seems you have options if this isn't fixed by the time your next client deadline looms. And while your arguments are lucid and reasonable, they won't get the attention of the developers here. You need to post your thoughts on this at Premiere Pro User Voice

[jedifan]

SAME Issue.  I can cut to the quick... EVERYTHING IS SAME.  7 years of multiple cameras recording multiple events every week for 7 school years.  Same cameras, same workflow, same Premiere procedure- over and over - every week.  NEVER, NOT EVER have I encountered this error UNTIL THIS UPDATE.  Now, when camera starts new file, I have to for some reason clip the 1st 3 frames of all subsequent files in timeline.  The only change is Premiere version.  Tell developers to UNDO whatever they did.  If this is to be the new norm, Premiere is UNUSABLE as I cannot make seamless video any longer ( I have a 3 frame black gap).  Very much  awaiting a coherent response that does NOT involve analyzing hardware.

[Michael Grenadier]

why not revert to the previous version which was working?  Premiere allows you to have multiple version installed on your system...  

[jedifan]

LOL  agreed.  I suppone one could make the argument by that logic we'd all still be on verion 1.0 of all software!  I'd like to point out this HUGE bug wasn't in the update documentation, so I had no way of knowing it existed until I actually did some work.  At this point I may revert, but seems to defeat the purpose of a cloud- based application that updates itself.

[Michael Grenadier]

you can turn off automatic updates....  Having worked with NLE's starting with AVID media composer very early on, that's always been the smartest way to work.  

[jedifan]

Just curious about a few things regarding your suggestion.

1. what's the point of cloud app if I have to turn off the updates in fear?
2. If I did turn it off, I would have installed the new update anyway (that's the point) only to find the same bug had I auto-updated? again what's the point?
3. In many cases, Premiere converts "pproj" files upon opening which renders them inaccessible to older versions.  Again, I updated, did the work, found the heineous bug and now all the work I did would have to be redone AFTER I reinstall an older version.  again- what's the point?

See a theme yet????  Adobe has locked us into updating and clearly engineers have NO experience in video editing so these rudimentary workflow bugs would have exposed themselves LONG before public release.

C'mon... you understand this is totally rediculous!

[Michael Grenadier]

Don't ssee how Adobe has locked you into immediately updating...  And the workflow bugs you talk about don't effect me or the majority of users.  Not to say that they shouldn't fix it...  

Premiere and other comparable programs are incredibly complex.  Back in the day of early Avids, they sold turnkey systems, controlling every piece of hardware and yet when there was an update, there were often problems and you learned not to update right away and to be ready to restore your system to its previous state if necessary.  And this was for a $50,000 system.    There is no way Adobe can test every possible permutation of equipment, os and also take in to account a myriad of other software that may be installed on the system and that may be interfering with some features of the software.   bwdik.    just have opinions from many years of experience...

[MARAND MEDIA]

I've been encountering this issue since 2020 when I started working with the mxf files. It has gotten progressively worse throughout, so though it may be primarily in one version for one client, that's not everyone. Finding a work-around wasn't what I was looking for since that's only temporary and can change with the breeze. Ive been looking for the cause of the issue so hopefully Adobe can find a solution and didn't even realize I needed to submit customer feedback beyond here. 

Sadly this forum hasn't been any help for this issue since it persists no matter what has been suggested, when actually using the mxf files.

[Michael Grenadier]

for what its worth, I've had issues with mxf files in the past and don't remember how I worked around them...   It seems that different camera manufacturers put different spins on their mxf files...  Sorry that this forum hasn't been of any help on this matter.  Forum participants are for the most part just users, not adobe employees and so if we're not experiencing the same problem, we're probably not gonna have an answer for you.  If you'd like to send me a problematic mxf file, happty to take a look at it on both the mac and pc with the latest version of premiere and see if I experience the same problem.   If you'd prefer to keep the communication private, just click on my user name at the head of my post to send me a direct message.  

[Milo25185114gfl1]

Having the same exact issue... extrememly frustrating. After reading through this thread it seems like my best options are:

1. download an older version of PP - anyone know which version this issue started on? should i go all the way back to 15.0?

2. shoot in mp4 instead of mxf - i really like the mxf codec and would prefer not to switch, but i suppose this would be an easy fix?

thanks!

[Michael Grenadier]

both mp4 and mxf are heavily compressed formats.  Smarter to shoot in (if possible) or transcode to an all i-frame format like the appropriate flavor of prores (if you're on a mac).  There's a downside to using prores on windows as other programs may not be able to work with prores (in particular DaVinci Resolve). Not sure what the best format is for windows...  I have found mxf files in particular to be problematic in some situations.  

[Milo25185114gfl1]

yeah that's just not really an options for me, at least not with my current gear and workflow. i just need to shoot and edit quickly and i'm usually happy to trade compression for that. seems such a stupid issue consisering mxf is such a widely used codec.

just installed 15.0 so will see if the issue happens on this version.

[Michael Grenadier]

what camera are you shooting with?  In the midst of a large documentary project with alot of 4K material shot with a sony camera as mxf.  There were serious issues in Premiere because of the color space the Sony shot in.   Reinterpreting the footage as rec709 solved alot of problems...   

[MARAND MEDIA]

On the C70, MXF is the file type for XF-AVC and with the update you can shoot in that, MP4, or Cinema RAW Light. XF-AVC can be ALL-I, you just select Intra Frame instead of LONG GOP in the menu. Shooting settings really depends on what you're doing and your workflow, so I wouldn't simply say one specific setting is what you should use, but this guy has some good recommendations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpDMF3LrlaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XtwVleTZhs&t=386s ).

@Milo25185114gfl1 I still do a proxy work flow and deal with the issues when color/grading rendering but this can be horrible for some projects and not bad for others. If you're looking to shoot and edit quickly simply use two cards and let the camera create proxies in the 2nd card and get right to editing with the proxies, then only attach the files at the end and if needed toggle them on/off while working with them. 

[jedifan]

BOOM.... and just like that problem solved.  Clearly Adobe found the issue and fixed.

[scottwild]

Uhh, care to explain? What has been fixed? What version are you on?

[MARAND MEDIA]

I know .. about to get my hopes up!

[jedifan]

Sure thing... I did nothing except EXACTLY what I did before - Let Adobe Cloud update my app.  New Version of Premiere no longer has issue of dropping 3 frames on subsequent camera files.  Just like that problem solved.

Which essentially beautifully illustrates my original point of letting Adobe auto-update and TRUSTING Adobe developement to test in order that we all can trust this process they've forced us into.

[MARAND MEDIA]

So version 22.5?

[jedifan]

22.5.0 (build 62)

[Martin5CBA]

I have 22.5.0 (build 62), still have the same issue with .mxf files. Still not fixed.