high speed scrubbing (cs6)

[Keith_Clark]

where did the scrubbing dial go? is it gone? or hidden? i miss it =( i also don't like the fact the zoom in feature has changed. but not as annoying as the scrubbing. so is scrubbing axed? (i realize you can do it with the playhead, but i liked the dial better.)

[Keith_Clark]

yeah, this is crap.

i relied havily on the fast forward function (jog?). shuttle can get bent. never used that feature. i would just put the job slider to about 3x speed an listen to the chipmunk voices for dead air, while watching tv to know when to make cuts. maybe the way i do it is "wrong" but thats how i do it. i want SOME form of automated fast forward. lol. 2x-3x would be nice. the JKL is way too slow. and the arrow keys are way too slow too. i would assume JOG would be a very important feature. or some kind of fast forwrd or rewind.... *shrugs

consider my "feature request" filed.

[Wil Renczes · Accepted solution]

Have you actually *tried* the JKL..?  It doesn't sound like you have.  2x/4x/8x is built in - hit L once, regular playback speed; hit it again, 2x; and so on.  Also, if you need to temporarily slow down, try this:  hit & hold the L key until you hit a region of interest, then (again, while the L key is down) hold down the K key at the same time.  Playback speed gears down into frame stepping.  Let go of K again: regular playback speed resumes. You can also use the K paused state in tandem with the J/L keys to 'rock' around points of interest.  It's incredibly powerful, and gives you much more accuracy than you'd ever achieve mousing with the jog.

I should also point out a different way of stepping:  holding arrow left/right steps a frame at a time, but shift-arrow left/right steps 5 frames at a time.  So that's another way to scan footage at a different pace than regular playback.

I'm sorry for the people that liked using the jog control, but I doubt it's going to make a comeback.  These were very researched, deliberate design changes that have been put in (believe me, a lot of energy was spent polling various users in quite a few different editing demographics).  Someone's always bound to not like it when things go away, but we really feel that this decluttering is a boon, not a hindrance, and that all the functionality is still very much there. Adding proper JKL support (including in trim mode!) was a hugely popular feature request, as was cleaning up the usable video space - give it a chance!  You never know, you might just change your minds...

Cheers

[DavidNJ]

Yes I have...and it is nowhere near as fluid. IF you have 10 or 15 keystrokes, many requiring multiple keys, you can duplicate the mouse. In a few cases faster.

HOWEVER, the keystrokes require you to have your fingers on the right keys. This is fine for touch typing where your fingers are on the keyboard. But you don't touch type JLK and especially Shift+J, shift+K. Manuveruring between windows. Moving audio to Audition for editing.

Net, the jog and shuttle are VERY useful and a major convienence and time saver. Maybe some of you FCP folks really love JLK; I don't. I've tried it. and use the mouse.

But Premiere Pro should allow both of us to work the way we want to. It is find they added new features...they just had no reason to remove the old features.And removing the old features hurts alot of us.

You didn't save any noticible real estate. If you look at my picture above, the difference is trivial. The jog and shuttle could have been left with the button options. They could have even been implemented as a version of the hover scrub, which doesn't work on the program or source windows. Button down left/right mouse does a jog. Different button makes it shuttle.

But instead...nothing.

[Keith_Clark]

Wil Renczes wrote:

Have you actually *tried* the JKL..?  It doesn't sound like you have.  2x/4x/8x is built in - hit L once, regular playback speed; hit it again, 2x; and so on.  Also, if you need to temporarily slow down, try this:  hit & hold the L key until you hit a region of interest, then (again, while the L key is down) hold down the K key at the same time.  Playback speed gears down into frame stepping.  Let go of K again: regular playback speed resumes. You can also use the K paused state in tandem with the J/L keys to 'rock' around points of interest.  It's incredibly powerful, and gives you much more accuracy than you'd ever achieve mousing with the jog.

Cheers

aaahhhhh.... THATS how it works. i thought Kevin, in post #2, meant you hold K+L together to go forward, and k+j to go back. it was going in slow-mo, so i was like "this is more worthless than anything!" i am actually "L"ing through a video right now while i type this! its actually WAY more versatile than the previous method! which was my biggest wish feature from previous, was to be able to review audio in the background with PrPro while in other apps

i'm sorry for the strong words, to be honest i know very little about keyboard shortcuts, so i know i am killing probably 65% of my productivity by not utilizing them. i guess i should learn more cause this JKL stuff is revolutionary!

[DavidNJ]

This is far too many tricky keystroke combinations requiring rather precise finger registration (the keys are next to each other). Is your ring finger as dexterous as your index finger?

You can use left/right arrow to rock around a point with much better control than the JLK combo, no registrtation issues, and they stop when you lift your finger.

[WesHaley]

I'm sory, but this reeks of the same problems Apple users faced with FCPX.  "We think this is better, so we changed it, and you will/should like it"  You guys are in a great position to take a lot of business from Apple with this release, but don't piss off your current customers by shoving your views down our noses. Because the simple fact of the matter is, this is simple fix.  You have already included a way to put back in buttons and customize the workspace, but for some reason neglected this tool that a lot of your users use.  Yes, I have tried JKL. I don't like it. I don't want to like it. I want a simple button/tool that has been in the program to be in there again.  I want the way you cut clips in mulitcam viewer to go back to the way it was. I honestly cannot think of why anyone would want to pick a camera angle while scrubbing and have the whole clip change and not have a cut be made.  But if that worked for your testers, so be it. Give me the option to reverse the behavior. Let Ctrl click change the whole clip, and let a click make a cut. 

Really surprised by this comment from an Adobe employee.  Taking all the exitement out of the release by telling me to just like it the way it is. Hopefully as people get this, enough people will complain here and elsewhere and really put the subscription service to the test by getting us a quick update.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

No, Apple deliberately did not listen to users when designing FCPX, as all the beta testers will tell you. They had essentially one guy designing it and they just wanted the betas to say"yes it's great!" Which none of them did.

Adobe worked with users at many levels (I do have personal knowledge of this) and what you see in CS6 is the best combo of features based on the input received. And some of the Adobe testers were very old school jog/shuttle types that are learning to leverage the keyboard more because they realized how much better it is.

I still agree it would have been better to leave those controls in there as toggle option. But it is NOT a deal breaker for most users. A lot of people - like myself - like the new cleaner interface. However, people complain twice as much as they praise so the feedback on this subject will be almost exclusively by dissenters. That's important to remember.

I'm sorry if you feel slighted but you should blame the beta testers for their suggestions and the people who filed feature requests, not Adobe, since they did what their users asked. It's not an FCP thing (FCP had jog/shuttle controls, you know).

[WesHaley]

my comment wasn't directed at the beta testing process, it was directed at the Adobe employee who just now said we hadn't tried the new way, that we would like it if we did. That shuttle/jog would probably not make a comeback.  Pretty much dismissing all concerns about where these controls have gone and the people who would like the option to have them in there.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

WesHaley wrote:

my comment wasn't directed at the beta testing process, it was directed at the Adobe employee who just now said we hadn't tried the new way, that we would like it if we did. That shuttle/jog would probably not make a comeback.  Pretty much dismissing all concerns about where these controls have gone and the people who would like the option to have them in there.

I understand...and even though I'm not an Adobe employee, I do want you to understand that I "feel your pain" about losing a feature that you used, even if you were the absolute ONLY person that used it, I know losing a part of your workflow is a major bummer.

But I wanted to reaffirm that in this case, it really is the users and the beta testers that determine this stuff. With Premiere Pro, probably more than any of the other Adobe apps, Adobe employees were travelling all over the country (and the world...?) working one-on-one with video editors of all stripes to build an editing solution that was what they wanted. Obviously they could not make 100% of the users happy, or implement 100% of the suggestions, nor guarantee that it would work EXACTLY like it did before, but I think they did an outstanding job of listening to users, observing their needs and giving them what they really needed and asked for.

I don't think the Adobe reps are DISMISSING your needs, they are only showing you that perhaps there is a way to do this that is better for most users, and perhaps you MIGHT like it better if you tried it for a bit. Naturally, it would be wrong for them to say "your way of working sucks, you're doing it wrong, our way is so much better and faster you'd be stupid to ask for what you're asking for" (in that case, they really would start sounding like Apple). I think they handled your concern pretty well, even though admittedly they could not even give you any hope of getting your jog/shuttle back. The fact that they could even tell you that at all proves that they are willing to be open with you about the product development. I think if you try the new workflow - and others try it as well - and still insist that it is a worse way of working, then when you voice your opinion once again it will possibly mean something more. For now, it's not a "our way or the highway" approach from Adobe, but it is a situation that you and others like you will have to deal with, so for now I'd suggest implementing the new keyboard workflow and see how it goes for a while.

For me, I absolutely hate having to touch the mouse while in PPro if I can help it. I've customized everything to keyboard shortcuts as much as I can, and even though I occasionally DID use the jog/shuttle, it was more out of my old habits than anything else. I much more frequently employ the JKL combos with the SHIFT modifier (and I didn't know about the J/L+K combo before now, so that is awesome!). That is my opinion, and again, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the new decluttered interface. I removed all but one or two buttons from the source and program monitors and they are never coming back.

[DavidNJ]

Christian, prima facie from this thread they may have "worked with users at many levels" but they either didn't do it effectively or missued the result.

Using the jog and shuttle would be common for anyone who preferred the mouse of the keyboard. In affect, they let you use the mouse with no key'/finger registration to manuver with one hand over tasks that would otherwise require high coordination over three fingers that where in a less comfortable position (arms bent, hand arched for the keyboard, arm extended hand relaxed for the mouse).

Removing these controls is a major defect IMHO.

[Jim Curtis]

Even though I feel that Pr is missing a lot of useful functions, I still get a lot more work done in less time than I did on MC or FCP. 

Creative people learn to work around the limitations in their software.

I never used that jog wheel.  Ever.  Didn't affect the quality of my work one iota.  But, like yours, mine is just one man's opinion.

BTW, I put an extensive list of feature requests in a few days ago.  I got an email back from an Adobe employee within ten minutes (telling me one of my requests - a scrub toggle shortcut - was already in CS6).  YMMV, but I was impressed.

[excited_Genie16B8]

I never used that jog wheel.  Ever. 

Ditto.

[Todd_Kopriva]

> I got an email back from an Adobe employee within ten minutes (telling me one of my requests - a scrub toggle shortcut - was already in CS6).  YMMV, but I was impressed.

Speaking as one of the people who does the job of reading the feature requests and bug reports for After Effects (it's a rotating job), I can say that we absolutely read, log, tally, and consider every submission. We don't answer every submission, but we often do answer if we need more information. I know that I answer if (as in this case) the requested feature already exists.

Don't count on responses being immediate, either. My usual workflow, when it's my turn, is to process the submissions once a week or so---though that differs from person to person, application to applicaiton, and even depending on what part of the release cycle we're in.

I'm not in the rotation for the Premiere Pro submissions, but I work very closely with the people who are, and I know that they take this part of the job very seriously.

[Todd_Kopriva]

> If you had instrumented a random population of CS5 and CS5.5 you could have had statistics on which controls are used.

We do have that, and we find it very useful for making decisions like this.

Though I do understand that you used this feature, I assure you that most people did not, and most of the people who we talked with who did were happy to use other means.

That said, we do heed feature requests, so I again urge you to submit one to cast your vote.

[DavidNJ]

No doubt you had statistics, just the statistics were flawed. Statistics on preferences are very tricky things to acquire. Samples are usually biased, The acquisition of the data tends to distort it. For example, this information had to be acquired through a question or application instrumentation. Either is biased with how it was collected and subject to simple errors in its processing.

Net, there was a problem in the research (which should be fixed) and that has resulted in a significant flaw in the application (which should be fixed by adding those controlls back as button options. The code exists...just put it back!

[DavidNJ]

By the way, I opened the button editor to confirm nomeclature before my last reply. There is a significant programming error, the dialog box is set to system modal instead of application modal. It is on top of this broswer window now.

When they fix that they can add the jog and shuttle controls to it. Which I would like to see before Independence Day.

[shooternz]

You might realize that we still edit video sequentially, just like a tape machine

.

I am sure many editors may still have need to edit that way for their own  reasons. Others may prefer to edit in a non linear fashion.

(I for one,  certainly have no need for ,and would not wish to return to the linear tape editing workflow..especially from a file based source footage)

What ever...I was only suggesting that editors give a chance to use the many control tools provided to get the job done....before  gnashing their teeth and tearing their hair out. I call it adaptive learning.

For the record... I never used those those controls ever...but I have no issue or disrespect for those that did. 

I  was not part of Adobes "understand the user" program but not surprised to hear from Todd that there is one and I do hope it is biased and reflects the professional user  view more than the amateur or hobbyist.

[excited_Genie16B8]

I do hope it is biased and reflects the professional user  view more than the amateur or hobbyist.

Agreed.

[needles27]

No doubt you had statistics, just the statistics were flawed.

You think they were flawed because they don't match what you want. 

You are mad.  You filed a feature request.  Go edit until they release a new version which may or may not give you what you want, or switch to something else.

[DavidNJ]

I think they are flawed because they removed a feature that is used by a significant portion of the user base. One-third of the posters in this thread use one or both of the removed controls. The type of users most likely to miss it a) are least likely to use this forum (and probably don't even know it exists), b) probably haven't downloaded CS6 yet, and c) are less likely to seek a remedy than a heads-down editor. Most likely, they will be less happy with Premiere, less likely to recommend it, and more likely to seek an alternative.

Flawed was correct. This topic has been the core of marketing research theory and practice for 50 years. From my grad school days, a 1950s survey of brownie preferences ended up with something best described as a thick, chocolate milk.

The people at Adobe most skilled in this area were more likely on strategic initiatives such as the placement of Creative Cloud relative the various CS6 suites.

[excited_Genie16B8]

a feature that is used by a significant portion of the user base.

I know Adobe did their research.  From that statement, I assume you also did a survey?

I'm curious, how large was your sample?  (Please don't tell me it's just the folks in this thread.)  Across what market segments?  Do you have any stats to share?

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

FWIW...I did use shuttle/jog now and then, but having scroll options works fine for my needs.

[WesHaley]

It works in a multicam sequence in the program monitor, but it does not work in the multi-camera window where you select your cameras.  And even if it did, like David said, it's not a good substitute for somethign that had no business being taken out.  I don't want to scroll up and down with my mouse wheel. I tried it a little, and that is an awful way to edit.

I've submitted a feature request, so we'll see, but Adobe needs to act on this.

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

Ann Bens wrote:

No shift, just hover over the Monitors and scroll with the mouse wheel frame for frame. Just like Graig said.

I just checked it on my laptop and SHIFT+scroll does indeed increase the scrub rate 5x as I suspected.

[UnkleBob]

I never used the shuttle, too imprecise, but the jog disk was very useful. Is that gone too?

I'm annoyed by all the references to using these features with a "mouse". Sure, that might blow. Now try it with a Wacom tablet, and you'll see how precise and intuitive (and most of all FAST) using the jog dial is (was?). And I can edit one-handed while sipping a coffee. I also have a Contour Shuttle Pro, but it's hard to beat a Wacom for flying round the screen and getting work done without laborious keystrokes.