high speed scrubbing (cs6)

[Keith_Clark]

where did the scrubbing dial go? is it gone? or hidden? i miss it =( i also don't like the fact the zoom in feature has changed. but not as annoying as the scrubbing. so is scrubbing axed? (i realize you can do it with the playhead, but i liked the dial better.)

[Keith_Clark]

"Wow, just stumbled across this...surprised this "discussion" is still going.

Scanning through the last 125 posts or so (and that's insane)....I'm pretty surprised with all the personal attacks, lack of advancement of the topic and general nonsense that it hasn't been filed off in the lounge yet, or at least been subjected to heavy redaction by the mods at the very least."

Again, my deepest apologies

Sent from my iPhone

[Jim_Simon]

Mouse controlled jog and shuttle that allow easily controlled variable sensitivity with far less movement than any dedicated hardware and more accuracy than either is "obsolete".

According to Adobe, yes.

[Jim_Simon]

If you had any background in ergonomics you would know that JKL is not well positioned for left hand use.

It doesn't take an education in ergonomics to know that it works just fine, only experience.

[shooternz]

Thread jack

IMHO - This thread has gone past its use by date but one thing shows up for me as I followed it.

The format of this forum makes it very tiresome  to access last (most recent) post  on page three of such a long thread.  The script error occasionally slows things down to an intolerable degree.

A page navigation bar at the top of the page (as well as the bottom one) might help somewhat.

[Jon-M-Spear]

Spot on shooternz.  I absolutely agree with the tiresome navigation on long threads and the need for the navigation bar at the top of the page.

I also would like to see a sort order introduced so that we can view  the newest thread first.

Steven.  I think you'll find that I mentioned the Contour Shuttle Pro in Thread 2!

[Steven_Pribilinskiy]

I forgot, sorry, you're right - it's a long thread

[Jon-M-Spear]

Too long!

It takes a day and a half to reach the end 😞

[jstrawn]

Efficient means "Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort."  Translation - faster is more efficient.

I'm not sure... To me that definition reads more like: 'work at a reasonable speed but don't be afraid to go a little slower at times to avoid dumb mistakes.'

Our users have different speeds which they are comfortable at. We try to enable these different user needs but of course we can;t please everyone all the time. Streamlining the UI and enabling a more keyboard-driven workflow was our # 1 feature request for sometime. I was against these UI changes at first until I saw how much the higher-volume pro users needed them and how easily I could work around them with other methods. I do wish there was a way to still be able to bring the shuttle/jog UI and other retro funtionality back but the fact is that there's not. It's not perfect, but JKL is the workaround for shuttle/jog comtrols and most people have found that quite acceptable once they get used to it.

David, you can remap the 'J' 'K' and 'L' to be other keys in the 'Keyboard Shortcuts' dialog, so I would suggest trying that if it's simply a matter of key location.

[needles27]

Feels like it isn't a huge deal for Adobe to bring back something in the next version which some people really rely on, and it can remain hidden for the people who don't care.  No need to argue back and forth and try and change how people edit and "win" this thread. 

Feature requests filed, current software exists the way it does, future software may be different. 

[Jammez. ⚡️]

Just to chime-in on the the whole JKL issue: JKL works, but the shuttle control gave you an intuitive speed control that was fluid, granular and efficient.

With the shuttle control in CS5, I could easily zip through minutes of footage at 3x speed (to get an overall feel for a scene), then slow down 1x speed (to watch the last few seconds), then to ~0.3x speed (to find my out point). I'd use the left and right arrow keys to get the out point frame perfect, hit O to set my out point, preview the edit with CTRL + SPACE, and finally hit ` (custom shortcut) to make a subclip.

I could get through hours of footage like that, fast.

JKL feels seriously unresponsive - I always to seems to shuttle too far either side of the points I'm looking to hit in footage.

How about middle mouse button support? There'd be a 'magic spot' in the UI somewhere that you place the cursor over, hold the middle mouse button, and an overlay appears on the UI to provide a 'scale' for your shuttling. Drag left/right, you shuttle. Let go of the mouse button, and the overlay subtly fades away.

Just my $0.02...

[Kevin-Monahan]

jd2kku wrote:

Just to chime-in on the the whole JKL issue: JKL works, but the shuttle control gave you an intuitive speed control that was fluid, granular and efficient.

You can do the same with JKL. I can, and hope to show others how they can too. There is very little information about how to operate JKL properly out there on the web. I hope to change that.

I could get through hours of footage like that, fast.

I can do the same with JKL. I'm fast, as I don't touch the mouse.

With the shuttle control in CS5, I could easily zip through minutes of footage at 3x speed (to get an overall feel for a scene), then slow down 1x speed (to watch the last few seconds), then to ~0.3x speed (to find my out point). I'd use the left and right arrow keys to get the out point frame perfect, hit O to set my out point, preview the edit with CTRL + SPACE, and finally hit ` (custom shortcut) to make a subclip.

I can do the same.

• 3x speed? Type LLL
• 3x down to 1x speed? Type JJ
• Slow to .3x? Type K/L at the same time.
• Left and right arrows, previewing, subclips, etc. work the same way.

I think the key is, the jog/shuttle controls needed little explanation to operate. While the JKL keys do much the same thing, the technique needs more explanation.

[Kevin-Monahan]

needles27 wrote:

Feels like it isn't a huge deal for Adobe to bring back something in the next version which some people really rely on, and it can remain hidden for the people who don't care. 

Nothing is impossible, but it isn't likely, as jstrawn mentions (he's an Adobe employee). You can't just "plop something back in" as you think you could. It will take software coding and testing to do that. Software coding and testing to put back a feature will take time away from developing other new features, or fixing critical bugs. Are you sure you want to do that?

needles27 wrote:

Feature requests filed, current software exists the way it does, future software may be different.

Correct. Feature requests are here: http://www.adobe.com/go/wish

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim Simon wrote:

that part of the keyboard is under your left hand. JKL is under your right hand.

No.  All keyboard shortcuts are under the left hand, the mouse is under the right hand.

That's the way I was trained too at Avid school. It took a long time, but in FCP, I evolved into an all keyboard workflow with little or no mouse use.

Despite all the improvements made for keyboard editors, you still can't escape using the mouse at some point in an NLE.  Probably will never be able to entirely.  So...one hand on keyboard, one on mouse for most efficient flow.

With FCP, you can. You can edit blindingly fast, if you know all your shortcuts. My hope is that Premiere Pro will someday be able to do the same.

No it doesn't.

Yeah, it does.  Efficient means "Acting or producing effectively with a minimum of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort."  Translation - faster is more efficient.

I rather agree. While training editors over the past decade, the goal in mind was to finish tasks more quickly and efficiently. I used to say, "Get to Miller Time faster." Equating that faster speed equals the sooner you can get back to your real life!

[Jim_Simon]

With FCP, you can.

I've never had the misfortune of using FCP, but there are things that need doing that I am skeptical can be done without the mouse, such as selecting multiple clips in the bin to load up into the Source Monitor, especially when they are not all in a row, or scrolling the timeline panel, repositioning the CTI in the middle of a clip, and you can absolutely move back and forth through a clip or a sequence much, much faster by manually dragging the CTI than by using either JKL or the jog/shuttle controls.

And I still think I can trim with the mouse in CS5 faster than you can with the keyboard in CS6.

[Corvalent]

I too used the jog shuttle a lot.  I prefered being able to watch the screen, and precisely adjust position without having to look down, or contort my fingers on the keyboard. 

When I noticed it was missing, my first thought was, "oh, the've hid it.  No problem."  I started digging around, found the "+" symbol, and thought, "ah, ok here's where I can turn it back on..."  Nope.

Why the dell would you guys *remove* such a basic long standing editing tool?  That's like removing all the buttons from the front of a AV receiver, "because most people use the remote"...

I can see hiding it if you want to streamline the interface, but don't just flat out remove something like that.  It makes no sense at all.  What did you gain?  I mean, how was removing it, better, than leaving it? 

*PLEASE* bring it back, and allow the user the choice, if they want it hidden or not.

[TheCanberean]

THANK YOU ADOBE!! . . .

. . . for getting rid of that jog wheel and shuttle bar. I never used it. The keyboard JKL keys work great.

Thank you for de-cluttering my workspace.

I can't believe all the kerfuffle on here reagrding a much needed improvement. And I read somewhere up the thread that someone was comparing it to Apple and FCP X  . . . Come on . . . PLEASE!!!???

I love CS6. Everything about it is a step in the right direction. At the current time I cannot find anything negative about it at all.

THANK YOU ADOBE!!

. . .now can we just fix track targeting . . .?

[DavidNJ]

If Hawkins does like it he doesn't need to use it or display it. To reject the rights of others to have a different opinion, and clearly lots of people with a different opinion, is rude.

[Jumanous]

Alex ... that's a pretty horrible attitude.   DavidNJ is dead right.  Unclutter by all means, but leave the option to use the old interface.

[TheCanberean]

If Hawkins does like it he doesn't need to use it or display it. To reject the rights of others to have a different opinion, and clearly lots of people with a different opinion, is rude.

Jumanous wrote:

Alex ... that's a pretty horrible attitude.   DavidNJ is dead right.  Unclutter by all means, but leave the option to use the old interface.

Well, Hawkins loves it!

I just thought the gang at Adobe needed some congrats and kudos, which seemed to be lacking throughout. 

I'm certainly not rejecting your right to be wrong about it. Not in a million years. Who needs buttons on the GUI? The less the better I say. Keyboard shortcuts all the way.

Thanks again Adobe.

[Jon-M-Spear]

I absolutely agree with Alex.  Track targeting V and A1 in this form is a brute of a bottleneck.

On one hand Adobe says that it wants to cater more to keyboard editors; on the other, there doesn't seem to be a way to target V and A1 without grabbing for that blasted mouse - or doing away with it altogether  - that would get my vote. 

It seemed to work on an Avid system, but not how it's implemented here.  Trouble is, it's been so long since I've used Avid, I cannot actually recall the process.  Age is a cruel thing!

I've posted a feature request for optional keyboard shortcuts.

*******Enhancement / FMR*********

There is currently not a way to target V and A1 tracks without using the mouse.  

For keyboard biased editors, grabbing the mouse for this function creates workflow bottlenecks.

Please build in optional keyboard shortcuts in the same way that track selection shortcuts are available. 

[jstrawn]

I feel your pain about the UI controls you use being gone with no option to bring them back. Keyboard-driven workflow was the #1 request that came out of the user research for CS6, so that explains why they were removed from the default monitors. As for why they were not included in the customization panel, I can only speculate. Probably because they were not actually buttons so they would have needed their own sub panel to be customized from, which would have made the whole panel kind of weird and confusing, and also probably because user research was not indicating that many people even wanted/needed them once they discovered JKL... but that's jusy m SPECULATION.

As for the track targeting thing... duly noted as a big pain point for a lot of users... FR's never hurt.

[DavidNJ]

Which was clearly a problem in user research. Keyboard commands are favored in applications by dedicated users. Users who spend less than 20% of their time video editing (note, Premier is sold as part of Master Collection) can't remember the keystroke commands for 10 different applications. Additionally, the desirability of keyboard commands varies with the type of keyboard (many users edit on a laptop in the field), finger dexterity, physical impairment. It probably should be immediately reinstated on that last count alone: keyboard controls don't work if you lost your fingers (e.g. a war veteran).

For others, their eyes are on the screen and finger registration on the keyboard isn't convenient.

This needs to be escalated. I'm sure it is going to be a road show topic.

[Corvalent]

This.

I don't live in premiere.  I use it for projects as they come up in our marketing department.  I spend a lot more time in InDesign, and Photoshop.  I don't have time to memorize every damn keyboard command, I need it to work intuitively, I just don't have time to spend hours researching and training myself.  And sometimes making a program intuitive, means offering several different ways to do things.

I've been editing video for a long time, but I don't do it constantly.  Please bring this feature back, and in the future for major UI changes, HIDE the options, don't remove it.

On a positive note, I do want to say thank you for ADDING a cool feature, warp stabilization, to Premiere.  That was the main thing I used After Effects for, and it's really nice to not have to link the clips, and deal with jumping into a different program.  It handles stabilizing images much more gracefully now.  That was a very good move.

Thanks,

-J

[SCAPsinger-PZKeOS]

For users who rarely use PPro, or aren't video people, then jog/shuttle are probably not the first thing they'd try to use. I'd think that they'd be mousing around the timeline panel 90% of the time and rarely start grabbing an odd little wheel or rubber toggle.

There are many different ways to locate the CTI at the frame, multi-frame, playback, reverse, fast playback and fast reverse levels using the mouse (dragging the CTI) the mouse wheel (scrolling and SHIFT+scrolling in the monitor), typing (using J/K/L or the arrow keys or the SHIFT+arrow keys, or space bar). Whether a "keyboard editor" or not, and regardless of physical disability, the ways to access playback functions are numerous even without the jog/shuttle controls of yesteryear. Just as a keyboard is useless to someone with no fingers, clicking a mouse is likely just as impossible.

Again, for those who claim they need them or prefer them, nobody here is saying you're wrong for wanting the jog/shuttle, but you are assuming too much that it's a dealbreaker, even for the casual user.

As a case in point, I just asked my wife (who is definitely not a computer person and knows nothing about anything video editing specific) to sit down and try to play forward, reverse and go around the timeline. I showed her CS6 first and CS5. She did the same things each time, and she DID ask what the jog/shuttle controls were on CS5. I showed her how to use them and frankly she was freaked out by the shuttle and thought it was difficult to use compared to just moving the CTI (which she called the "play line") or using the arrow keys to move just a little.

Granted, as this is the very first time she ever attempted to do anything in a video NLE, she's not become used to the controls the way some are complaining about the loss of their jog/shuttle items. She's just doing what appears intuitive to her, and she didn't find the jog/shuttle to be intuitive at all...rather she thought it was almost uncontrollable and not at all precise.

You all clearly want your voice to be heard, and the feature request form is absolutely the only way that is going to happen. You can keep making noise here on the forum all you want if it helps you feel better to vent, but it's not accomplishing anything beyond that.

As for the road shows, the Adobe team (5 or 6 of them) was at an event last week here in Atlanta. With over 250 people in the room of all ages and specialties (20 year olds, 60 year olds, film guys, news guys, etc) I don't think anybody asked about the jog/shuttle, even though Al Mooney mentioned it specifically at one point. There was a lot of time spent during the pre-event and intermission and post-event for folks to talk with the Adobe guys and what time I was hanging over there, I never once heard it mentioned. Maybe when I went to grab a drink?

I even asked some of my buddies at the event who are in their 50's and cutting news clips what they thought about some of the changes - including jog/shuttle - and one of the guys said "I never used that...last time I used that was cutting linear and I don't care to start cutting linear again."

The voices of 5, 10 or 50 users does not constitute an uproar, nor does this loss of your feature constitute a broken program, it's simply a manner of working. As others have said before, it's unfortunate for those users who used jog/shuttle to have lost something, but it is not affecting a wide majority of users. My guess is that even with all affected users filing a feature request, it will still not range high enough in priority to gain a lot of development support (assuming it's at all difficult to add it back in, of course...that I do not know). But again, the feature request ABSOLUTELY is the only real voice you have on this matter. And again, unless you simply feel the need to continue ranting on a well-covered issue, I suggest you file your request and be done with this until the Adobe team has opportunity to make any possible changes.

I'm only trying to help you all to be realistic and practical here, I cannot help beyond that.

[Jon-M-Spear]

As I said at the start of this thread...

A Contour Shuttle Pro is the way to go!  You won't WANT the GUI wheel reinstated after using one.