I need to get my mouse sharpened...

[shooternz]

Just an observation ....but I think that CS6 has turned my mouse into a blunt object!

Like filleting a fish with a blunt knife.

I have cut a handful of small projects with CS6 since its release but I am currently in the middle of cutting 8 TVCs. 

This experience with CS6 has confirmed my observation that the new timeline trim tricks and functions seems to make me feel as if I am  cutting with a blunt instrument compared to previous versions of PPRO.

If the mouse cursor is not precisely positioned...one does not get the trim action or result that one wants so easily.  ie. Fiddling around until the desired trim indicator shows.

Working in a scaled out timeline makes things easier but it never felt this difficult before to get onto and edit point at either end of a clip.

With clients besides me...I have never felt so bumbling as this makes me look!

BTW - I am using combinations of mouse, shortcut keys and modifier keys.

[cliffclof]

SimonHy wrote:

I'm quite open to changing the way I work, I just want to work the fastest way possible while limiting tendon damage. For me, in other NLEs, that's meant working with a keyboard.

I want to understand completely.  I use the keyboard a lot to edit very quickly, but I feel I am using it less than a lot of people in this thread while missing some things that could speed up my workflow.    Can someone please provide me with a link to a video that shows off the flow of keyboard editing in a concise manner.

Thanks.

[SimonHy]

cliffclof wrote:

SimonHy wrote:

I'm quite open to changing the way I work, I just want to work the fastest way possible while limiting tendon damage. For me, in other NLEs, that's meant working with a keyboard.

I want to understand completely.  I use the keyboard a lot to edit very quickly, but I feel I am using it less than a lot of people in this thread while missing some things that could speed up my workflow.    Can someone please provide me with a link to a video that shows off the flow of keyboard editing in a concise manner.

Thanks.

I know of no such videos. In fact it reminds me of a webcomic I read about portraying realistic hacking in movies, where a 30 second clip of someone sitting in front of a computer is revealed to be a 12 hour timelapse. By that I mean I don't think it would be a very visual thing to show. Plus editors are often a "behind the camera only" kind of bunch.

I don't think there's any rules to mastering keyboard editing. My philosophy is that everytime something comes up that I'm going to do more than once, I take the time to figure out if there's a keyboard shortcut for it, knowing it will save time in the long run, and slowly build up a repertoire of shortcuts. The other thing is that when people in this thread are talking about really fast keyboard editing, they're usually talking about Avid of FCP. There's quite a few limitations on keyboard editing in Premiere. A lot of functions having no shortcuts available, the lack of a decent keyboard based track patching system,  the need to bring up the window that a shortcut applies to before using that shortcut (effectively doubling the number of keystrokes required to do a lot of tasks), and the need to click on a lot of things before shortcuts will work, all stand out to me as the biggest issues for Premiere in this regard.

[KosCheb]

Simon, even if you edit with the keyboard mostly, regular mice for pro's of many years like you are a no-no - please explore ergonomic versions before you wear out your wrists. I have been editing with an "Evoluent" vertical mouse (wired version) for 3 years. Before that I tried the vertical Joystick-style 3M version (best ergonomically but low precision in editing) and the Microsoft quazi-ergonomic concoctions but only Evoluent really dealt away with the pronation. The lurking carpal tunnel is gone. I've been editing non-stop and not experiencing problems ever since I moved to this beast. If you are interested - do NOT get bluetooth versions, they suck. There's an Apple version, too.

[Toomany3-KEeYrp]

SimonHy wrote:

It's a bit of a shame that the move towards keyboard editing is messing up mouse based editors, considering how woefully far behind Avid and FCP the functionality still is for keyboard purists. Hopefully Adobe can iron out the wrinkles and make things work better for both groups.

I agree entirely. All in all CS6 is incredible, but the fact that I have to zoom way in to make a mouse edit is a huge step backwards. I wish there was a way to turn down the proximity sensitivity so the guys that like it to snap on when it's an inch away can leave it, and the rest of us who want it to only snap on within a millimeter can set it that way. Now everyone's happy.

[shooternz]

All in all CS6 is incredible, but the fact that I have to zoom way in to make a mouse edit is a huge step backwards. I wish there was a way to turn down the proximity sensitivity so the guys that like it to snap on when it's an inch away can leave it, and the rest of us who want it to only snap on within a millimeter can set it that way.

I am wondering if you are saying that you wish to edit and trim in the timeline exclusively with the mouse  (ie no use of keyboard at all).

but if you are happy with both  mouse and some keyboard use...there are a number of ways of acheiving the precision you want and here is a very simple example.

Setup a keyboard short cut to "toggle the trim mode"  (eg.the CS6 default)

Then just select (snap to) the middle of the edit point with the mouse cursor...toggle the trim mode and make the trim with the mouse.

This can be done without  extensively expanding the  timeline.

[Toomany3-KEeYrp]

shooternz wrote:

I am wondering if you are saying that you wish to edit and trim in the timeline exclusively with the mouse  (ie no use of keyboard at all).

but if you are happy with both  mouse and some keyboard use...there are a number of ways of acheiving the precision you want and here is a very simple example.

Yes, you described me perfectly. I do use ctrl-k or ctrl-shift-k for keyboard cuts a lot, but only when both hand are already on the keyboard. Otherwise, 90% of my other cuts/edits are done with the mouse.

but if you are happy with both  mouse and some keyboard use...there are a number of ways of acheiving the precision you want and here is a very simple example.

Setup a keyboard short cut to "toggle the trim mode"  (eg.the CS6 default)

I'm very excited about what you're describing and I want to make sure I understand it. I assume when you said "toggle the trim mode" you mean "toggle the trim type." That's the most similar entry I saw in they keyboard shortcuts. It currently is assigned to Shift-T.

Then just select (snap to) the middle of the edit point with the mouse cursor...toggle the trim mode and make the trim with the mouse.

This is the step that I'm not following entirely.  What do you mean by "middle of the edit point"?  Could you please explain this step a little more, I have a feeling this is exactly what I need, but I'm not understanding it entirely.

Thanks!

[shooternz]

Toggle Trim Type  - yes

From above you appear to be doing many / all  of your edits in the timeline .. with the Razor Tool ( Ctrl-K)

FWIW ... I make my edits in the Source monitor initially then just trim in the timeline

Either way... creates an edit point.  That cut point is what I called  the  "middle of the edit point" . ie not either side of it.

It is easy to locate and lock to because the cursor snaps to it.  ie. easier than being a little either side of it to trigger the Trim Type icon of choice.

So a little further info about my edit style...I edit with right  hand on the mouse and left hand on the keyboard.  My customised keyboard is setup for ease of lefthand access.  I can naill the edit point with the mouse (or another shortcut) and quickly toggle the Trim Type with the shortcut.

PPRO offers so many ways to "skin the cat".

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim Simon wrote:

Wanna race?

I still think I could beat you on this front (using older PP of course.)

Cheater! You can't have it both ways.

I want to edit with no mouse, as I did with FCP.

I'm skeptical that's entirely possible.  How did you select multiple clips in a bin, especially when they weren't sequential?  How did you scroll the timeline view horizontally?  How did you scroll it vertically when you have many layers?  How did you make a window larger or smaller?

OK, I'll back off and say edit almost always w/o the mouse. Basic editing should be doable without touching the mouse.

• When would I need to select multiple non-contiguous clips? Rarely, right? For storyboarding, I guess. Usually, I load a clip, mark it, and slam it into the Timeline.
• Not fair with "scrolling the timeline horizontally" as FCP was always broken in this regard. Can't believe they never fixed that. I rarely scrolled with the Hand tool, I just hit the K key to stop to see where I was.
• Never needed to scroll vertically as I had custom layouts with a tiny canvas and max room for tracks in my list of shortcuts--same with window size.

[Jim_Simon]

Cheater! You can't have it both ways.

I meant you use CS6, but since the new feature slows down mouse trimming, only I use CS5, where mouse trimming was faster than it is in CS6 (and I bet faster than keyboard trimming).

[Jim_Simon]

I'll back off and say edit almost always w/o the mouse.

And there it is.

You may not have needed to do the things I mention often, but I do (especially horizontal scrolling of the sequence).  And so it is simply more efficient to keep one hand on the mouse at all times.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim Simon wrote:

And so it is simply more efficient to keep one hand on the mouse at all times.

Here is where we'll agree to disagree.

[Jim_Simon]

Here is where we'll agree to disagree.

I meant for me.  As I often do things that require the mouse, even on FCP, one hand always on the mouse is the most efficient way for me to edit.

All I'm asking is that Adobe keeps that in mind when designing the UI, and not take backwards steps as was done when adding keyboard trimming.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim Simon wrote:

... and not take backwards steps as was done when adding keyboard trimming.

Another point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

For me, keyboard trimming ROCKS.

[shooternz]

...and I agree with Kevin.

The keyboard trimming...more correctly known as "Timeline Trimming" is a giant step forward and it does rock!

I really dig it.

I simply had to adapt my workflow a touch and make a couple of convenient shortcuts and its is like editing in a brand new machine.

I got so excited about it ...that to celebrate.....I gave my keyboard a birthday present  this morning.

An air can blow out and a clean up with iso propyl alcohol.

[Jim_Simon]

Another point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, I can't allow you to disagree with me on this one.  Mouse trimming HAS taken a step backwards, and needs to be corrected in some fashion.  How anyone feels about keyboard trimming is a separate issue.  I don't argue with it's inclusion, nor necessarily wish for it's removal.

But...the ease and responsiveness of mouse trimming has been tampered with, and that's not acceptable.  That feature took a step backwards when you guys added the keyboard ability.  Mouse trimming needs to be fixed so that it's as easy as it was before.

[shooternz]

Jim...mouse trimming is easier and faster than before...you just need to adapt a little.

I suggest you try something different  before saying it needs fixing. (Did you even try what I suggested to Toomany?)

The mouse is far more powerful and faster  than it was previously because of the new  Timeline trim functions.  They may have been designed around keyboard editing  but they incorporate perfectly into a mouse editors workflow if you give them a chance.  eg. You dont even need to change tools  or use modifiers to do the basic trim functions. (Trim Left/Right, Roll)  

You bang on how you have one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard ( I also do this...) ...so try  doing so with a new mind set , think it through...and I am sure you will discover the new Premiere.

Good luck.

[Jim_Simon]

Jim...mouse trimming is easier and faster than before.

I can't agree.  Going into Ripple Trim mode (the one I use most often) was MUCH easier previous to "edit point selection".  Before you just got it close and hit the CTRL modifier and slide.  Done.  Now I actually have to play around with it, move it farther, move it closer, deselect the edit point because that messes things up, and finally I'm able to finagle it into the yellow Ripple Trim mode.

It's a PITA by comparison to the previous functionality.

[Ann Bens]

Have you tried it with Allow selection tool to choose roll and ripple trims without modifier keys in the Preferences.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Jim Simon wrote:

Another point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, I can't allow you to disagree with me on this one. 

Just because I disagree, doesn't mean your points aren't valid.

Jim Simon wrote:

Mouse trimming HAS taken a step backwards, and needs to be corrected in some fashion.

What do you suggest?

Jim Simon wrote:

But...the ease and responsiveness of mouse trimming has been tampered with, and that's not acceptable.

You can trim largely in the same way, in my experience. The main beef legacy users seems to have is that you can't trim with the mouse unless you are somewhat zoomed into the Timeline. Am I correct, or am I missing something?

Jim Simon wrote:

That feature took a step backwards when you guys added the keyboard ability.  Mouse trimming needs to be fixed so that it's as easy as it was before.

Something had to give way so that users could edit with the keyboard. It was one of our top feature requests. I'm not sure how you'd like to see how mouse trimming would work, given that selecting edit points are now a fact of life.

You have edited with other NLEs too. NLEs that have edit selection. Leaving Premiere Pro aside, why do these NLEs have better mouse trimming? Or do they have the same problem as you've found with Premiere Pro CS6?

I'd love to help you out, so let me know how you'd like to see the legacy way of mouse trimming while maintaining the feature of keyboard trimming in the Timeline in CS6.

[digitalkiln]

I'd like to chime in an agree that the new large red devil's tail is kind of like the old paper clip character from Microsoft Office, unwanted help that we should have an option to turn off.    Just because we request more keyboard functionality doesn't mean we are pure keyboard users that don't use the mouse, I would guess that would be a pretty small minority of users.

Cheers,

Gerry

[Jim_Simon]

What do you suggest?

Did that a while ago.

The main beef legacy users seems to have is that you can't trim with the mouse unless you are somewhat zoomed into the Timeline. Am I correct, or am I missing something?

Missing something.  Previously, the mouse went into Trim mode (using the standard Selection tool) simply by placing the mouse cursor near the edit point.  Holding down Shift changed that to Ripple Trim mode.  The same action in CS6 now has a myriad of results depending on how close you are to the edit point, what side of the edit point you are on, whether or not the edit point is selected, etc.  It used to be MUCH easier to get the mouse into Ripple Trim mode simply by holding it near the edit point and adding Shift.

I'd love to help you out, so let me know how you'd like to see the legacy way of mouse trimming while maintaining the feature of keyboard trimming in the Timeline in CS6.

One possibility is the aforementioned General Preference:  "Allow Timeline Edit Selection".  That way those who don't need or want it can turn it off.

[Alan_Craven]

I must declare an interest here - I am an addicted mouse editor.  I certainly find a combinastion of the default workspace and the greater precision needed with mouse placement an impediment in two areas -

•      achieving a ripple delete in a narrow gap - Premiere always wants me to trim

•      when the work area bar has been set to the width of the timeline, the right hand grab handle is a bare fingernail hold, whereas the left hand one is fine.

[Powered_by_Design]

Is there any way to turn on the slider zoom for the timeline ?

I like to be able to use my mouse.

GLenn

[Jim_Simon]

Is there any way to turn on the slider zoom for the timeline ?

The scroll bar now doubles as the zoom slider.

[Powered_by_Design]

Thanks Jim

It would be nice if when you moused over it it would say "slide to zoom"

At least that feature is still there unlike the ones you guys are talking about.

GLenn