Possible to not have pauses between clips in Blu-ray?

[Guy Burns]

In my experience with Encore, when I butt clips against each other and Build to Blu-ray, the end of each clip seems to pause for maybe 0.25 seconds before going onto the next clip.

In my testing, all clips were rendered out of Premiere as m4v and wav files, in legal Blu-ray format, such that Encore reports them as Don't Transcode. The clips I've tested come from a variety of sources, but are mainly old TV ads, movie trailers, shorts and cartoons. They could be NTSC or PAL, interlaced or progressive, but all are rendered as 1920 x 1080, 23.976 fps.

In what follows:

• Cut means the outgoing clip shows full-brightness images right till the end of the clip
• Fade means the clip fades to black in one second, right at the end of the clip
• Black means the final 0.5 second of the clip is black.

Here is what I've found:

1. Multiple clips on a single timeline when played in Encore – no problems.
2. Multiple clips on a single timeline when Built to Blu-ray – Cut and Fade clips show the pause problem. Fade clips seems to pause at about half brightness, whereas Cut clips pause on the last frame. Black clips don't have the pause problem.
3. The pause problem occurs when I build to a folder and play that from a fast USB stick, and also when built to a Blu-ray disk.
4. Reassembling the clips one at a time onto separate timelines, and then generating a Playlist, has the same result as above.
5. The problem does not occur if I extract the m2ts files from the Blu-ray, open them in VLC, and play them automatically in sequence.
6. Similarly, if I Join the extracted m2ts files using tsmuxer, and play the new file in VLC, there is no pause problem.
7. Similarly, if I use tsmuxer to multiplex the original m4v and wav files (directly out of Premiere) into m2ts, then Join, then assemble in VLC, again no problem.

Ques 1

Is it possible to fix this pause problem, or is it inherent in Blu-ray?

Ques 2

Is it likely that the problem is due to the types of clips I'm using? Would the problem disappear if tried stills that Fade?

Ques 3

Making the final 0.5 seconds of a clip black, fixes the problem. Would a shorter time work?

Ques 4

Although I've been testing on material that's not my own, my real interest in all of this will be when I produce my own Blu-rays. Based on advice I read from experienced users of Premiere, I generated my projects in a number of Sequences. I assumed that I would then render each Sequence, and have the Blu-ray authoring program join them together seamlessly. But it appears I may be mistaken; that doing so will not work properly; that Blu-ray cannot play a series of m2ts files without a pause between them.

When professionals produce a feature film on Blu-ray, do they ever do so in small sections? Or are films always rendered as one big file when it's time to go to Blu-ray?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

[Stan Jones]

Most of what you are describing is inherent in putting gop material onto a single Encore timeline. Even though your assets show as not needing to be transcoding, is Encore not transcoding it?

The "Black" works for the same reason most of us ensure that chapters end in a way that a pause will not disrupt. Marking chapters in PR also helps, because it will create a gop boundary at the chapter mark.

Some of your issues can be addressed by using Encore submenus for sections where you can forgo rewind/fast forward between sections. And most others, by combining your PR sequences into a single export.

[Guy Burns]

Thanks for the suggestion about marking chapters in Premiere before export, to create GOP boundaries. I've never done that, but am in the process of testing. I'll let you know the results.

Re transcoding: Encore never transcodes my clips – except the occasional audio. I make sure of that beforehand, by running each clip through Encore and then out to a Blu-ray folder for testing in the Blu-ray player. Then it gets catalogued and sent to my archive. Thereafter, Encore will build an hour-long Before Interval section (for our movie nights) in less than 5 minutes.

I'm going to continue working on the pause problem, but when my projects are completed it looks like I should be rendering from Premiere as a single file – for me, a surprising limitation.

[Guy Burns]

I created some test Builds using files from Premiere that had Encore markers inserted. The pauses were still there.

Next test is to put the files onto separate timelines in Premiere, render, and see if AE handles them any differently.

However, it's looking like pauses are unavoidable when using AE, but fancier software – and Blu-ray disks – can avoid them.

[neil wilkes · Accepted solution]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Guy+Burns  wrote

In my experience with Encore, when I butt clips against each other and Build to Blu-ray, the end of each clip seems to pause for maybe 0.25 seconds before going onto the next clip.

In my testing, all clips were rendered out of Premiere as m4v and wav files, in legal Blu-ray format, such that Encore reports them as Don't Transcode. The clips I've tested come from a variety of sources, but are mainly old TV ads, movie trailers, shorts and cartoons. They could be NTSC or PAL, interlaced or progressive, but all are rendered as 1920 x 1080, 23.976 fps.

In what follows:

• Cut means the outgoing clip shows full-brightness images right till the end of the clip
• Fade means the clip fades to black in one second, right at the end of the clip
• Black means the final 0.5 second of the clip is black.

Here is what I've found:

1. Multiple clips on a single timeline when played in Encore – no problems.
2. Multiple clips on a single timeline when Built to Blu-ray – Cut and Fade clips show the pause problem. Fade clips seems to pause at about half brightness, whereas Cut clips pause on the last frame. Black clips don't have the pause problem.
3. The pause problem occurs when I build to a folder and play that from a fast USB stick, and also when built to a Blu-ray disk.
4. Reassembling the clips one at a time onto separate timelines, and then generating a Playlist, has the same result as above.
5. The problem does not occur if I extract the m2ts files from the Blu-ray, open them in VLC, and play them automatically in sequence.
6. Similarly, if I Join the extracted m2ts files using tsmuxer, and play the new file in VLC, there is no pause problem.
7. Similarly, if I use tsmuxer to multiplex the original m4v and wav files (directly out of Premiere) into m2ts, then Join, then assemble in VLC, again no problem.

Ques 1

Is it possible to fix this pause problem, or is it inherent in Blu-ray?

Ques 2

Is it likely that the problem is due to the types of clips I'm using? Would the problem disappear if tried stills that Fade?

Ques 3

Making the final 0.5 seconds of a clip black, fixes the problem. Would a shorter time work?

Ques 4

Although I've been testing on material that's not my own, my real interest in all of this will be when I produce my own Blu-rays. Based on advice I read from experienced users of Premiere, I generated my projects in a number of Sequences. I assumed that I would then render each Sequence, and have the Blu-ray authoring program join them together seamlessly. But it appears I may be mistaken; that doing so will not work properly; that Blu-ray cannot play a series of m2ts files without a pause between them.

When professionals produce a feature film on Blu-ray, do they ever do so in small sections? Or are films always rendered as one big file when it's time to go to Blu-ray?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Question 1:

Yes - do not do this. Assemble all your assets before authoring, and remember that Authoring is just that - it is not editing, and you simply should not butt clips up against each other. If you must do this then do it in Premiere, render the Elementary Streams & use those for authoring. Treat Encore as an assembly tool, and not an editor.

Question 2

No - the problem is trying to edit in Encore.

Question 4

Each sequence should be rendered out and thought of as the actual playlist - not part of a playlist. If I am putting a disc together with a 2 hour video film, then the whole film goes into one sequence and gets spit out as a .264 file with separate audio files.

If you need to join 2 or more clips together then do it, but make sure each sequence is complete & self contained. Films are always rendered as one large file.

Blu-ray is complicated, and you will need to forget everything you know about DVD as it is no longer relevant.

If you want to start doing commercial titles then there are some gotchas:

1 - AACS is mandatory so you will need a tool capable of outputting at the least a Type A BDCMF file with AACS flags set.

2 - Your clients will need an AACS content owners license

3 - You cannot create BD-R titles using written media & sell them as Blu-ray discs as these are non compliant products and if they find out about it Sony will order all copies destroyed if they carry the Blu-ray logo - however you can sell as BD-ROM finalized as BDMV.

4 - the biggest one of them all - what authoring package to use. There used to be 3 tools available that would handle replica content in one package - Encore cannot output Blu-ray replication masters without a plugin and I am not sure this is even still available any longer

A - NetBlender's DoStudio was bought by Sony Creative Software & has been shut down now.

B - Sony's own Blu-Print has been shut down

C - Sony Creative Software no longer exists - all assets have been sold to Magix except DoStudio & Blu-Print, and DVD-Architect & Vegas cannot produce replica output masters

D - Scenarist is still viable, still developed & still supported but it is £60,000 per seat plus annual support fees.

I hope this helps, and if you need more details please either post here or drop me an email

[Guy Burns]

Thanks, Neil, for the detailed response. See my comments below.

I do have a few questions about Blu-ray replication. Is it best to ask them in a new thread or contact you privately?

https://forums.adobe.com/people/neil+wilkes  wrote

Blu-ray is complicated, and you will need to forget everything you know about DVD as it is no longer relevant.

Luckily for me, I don't know much about DVD. I purposely skipped that era of digital video and waited for Blu-ray. I never liked the idea that DVD was stuck in the past, clinging to the roots of 1940s TV.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/neil+wilkes  wrote

4 - …Encore cannot output Blu-ray replication masters without a plugin and I am not sure this is even still available any longer.

That'd be BluStreak Tracer from RiverGate Software. It looks like it's still available.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/neil+wilkes  wrote

2 - Your clients will need an AACS content owners license

Clients? I'm my own client – a keen hobbyist trying to generate Blu-rays and have them replicated. Which reminds me of the old courtroom saying: "Anyone who acts for themselves, has a fool for a client." An apt comment in this case, with me trying to do the lot. But it's a good learning experience, even if the replication doesn't come off.

I contacted aacsla.com a few years ago about obtaining my own AACS license. Peggy on the switch and Justin on the technical side were very helpful.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/neil+wilkes  wrote

A - NetBlender's DoStudio was bought by Sony Creative Software & has been shut down now.

B - Sony's own Blu-Print has been shut down

I didn't know about the loss of DoStudio and Blu-Print. I had to go to the Wayback Machine to find my original links to Sony's DoStudio webpages about Blu-ray authoring – the best sources I was able to find several years ago. For anyone interested:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140321045627/http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com:80/training/dostudioa...

Are you sure Blu-Print has gone under? What about these?

bluprint | Radius60 Studios

Sony Blu-print 2D/3D Blu-ray Disc Authoring System

[neil wilkes]

Hi Guy.

Here or privately all depends on how much you are happy discussing publicly, I guess - I honestly do not mind either way.

Let's begin with Blu-Print - it looks from the web link as if Sony have sold it to someone else. That version advertised there is old now - I have since found this website selling version 6.7 but it definitely seems that this is no longer anything to do with Sony as such - their entire creative software line is either with Magix now or OOP forever.  If I go to the Sony Professional site & search, I find nothing at all under Blu-Print.

Good find on the archived stuff - all support for DSA has also vanished although I do have all the installers & PDF from previously (before we shifted to Scenarist BD-J tool) and I honestly wish I had sold it off when it was still possible to get the bugger activated - I have no idea what would happen if anyone who actually spent the £13,000 on the full package when it was released under NetBlender (Oh yes - that would have been me) needed to reinstall & reactivate it and I have no clue what would happen legally either. I suspect there is small print in the terms & conditions we all never read before installing saying that it lives and dies on the same machine.

But I digress, and it gets us nowhere listening to me whinging.

Reading through your response above, it does look like you have everything covered. BluStreakTracer is indeed the one you need (Mac Only) to turn an Encore output into the requisite Type A BDCMF replication Master.

AACS are very helpful, no doubt about it - but they can well afford to be given that the mandatory use of this doubles replication costs and considerably adds to overheads getting all set up. You can safely ignore ISAN (unless you are needing Managed Copy options but I have to say this is all pointless as a $75 piece of software will break any copy protection on the format. Delving into personal opinion I believe this is one of the 2 main reasons Blu-ray has not really taken off.

It would seem you are well sorted though but please do get in touch if there is anything I can help with. Blu-ray authoring for replication can best be summed up as "bloody complicated" and I strongly advise getting a test mould from the factory before proceeding with the replication run as this is really your only chance to test the encrypted data on devices such as the godawful PS3 or X-Box 1, neither of which allow playback of written Blu-ray BD-ROM discs to allegedly help fight piracy as these devices automatically assume any written disc is bootlegged, and will not run them - and PS3 count for about 12-15 million of the players out there. Probably as much as 40% of the "total number of Blu-ray players sold" as the PS3 counts towards this despite the probability that 95% of these have never had a Blu-ray film loaded into them. The trouble with the consoles and Blu-ray is that they are not Blu-ray players but emulators, and are the equivalent of a software player. They have caused us trouble in the past for certain.

I am happy to talk openly, and equally happy to go private via email or the PM system.

Neil