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Participating Frequently
December 9, 2021
質問

"Display Color Management" not working properly?

  • December 9, 2021
  • 返信数 1.
  • 918 ビュー

Hello, I'm using a Retina iMac from 2015. Its built-in display is sRGB. When I enable "Display Color Management" in Premiere Pro with a rec709-timeline I expect the image to get brighter due to the rec709->sRGB conversion. But the opposite is the case, the image gets darker, which is wrong. Is this a bug of Premiere or am I missing anything?

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R Neil Haugen
Legend
December 9, 2021

I think you may misunderstand the CM involved. Rec.709 is sRGB.

 

The Mac ColorSync utility misapplies two crucial parts of the Rec.709 standards, for some reason only known unto the people what chose to.

 

  • They only apply the first of the two required transforms, the camera transform. They do NOT apply the also required display transform.
  • They chose to set a gamma approximately 1.96 as the appropriate gamma for Rec.709, though the standards clearly state that a gamma of 2.4 in "normal" dim room working environments is the preferred, and 2.2 if working in a 'bright room environment'.

 

Between the two, the Mac display of Rec.709 files in apps that allow ColorSync to set their CM will be lighter especially in the shadows, and somewhat 'feeling' under-saturated.

 

So the behavior you're seeing is what one should expect, as Premiere is remapping the image to give a more correct Rec.709 image on your screen.

 

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...
mrjazz321作成者
Participating Frequently
December 9, 2021

What do you mean with camera transform? I can't find any information regarding a distinction between a camera and display transform.

 

I took a look at the profiles in ColorSync and they look as expected with the rec709-one being a bit more linear than sRGB. (I attached a screenshot showing both profiles in the ColorSync-Utility.)

 

I can't find any information regarding two different rec709-curves depending on the room brightness.

Can you provide a source where I can find more information about a camera and display transform and room brightness-dependence?

 

Also, when Premiere is doing the correct thing, then Photoshop must be wrong. Because when I assign the rec709-profile to an image in Photoshop to provoke a rec709->sRGB conversion, the image gets brighter. The Premiere- and Photoshop-team disagree on that subject?

R Neil Haugen
Legend
December 9, 2021

I'm on my tablet, not my desktop at the moment. So I don't have the bunch of links available. I've got a long, long list of them. The Rec.709 standards have been the basis for all pro broadcast/long-form work for quite a few years now.

 

I'm a contributing author over at MixingLight.com, a pro colorist's subscription site. CM issues are the daily talk of colorists, and covered in many of the tutorials there and elsewhere.

 

Also there are many articles by people like Steve Shaw of LightIllusions, the company that makes Colourspace, one of the top two color management calibration/profiling apps used by the industry. Including direct comments on Mac and the odd application of Rec.709 CM.

 

Much of the YouTube materials I've seen on CM and especially Premiere and Mac's CM are worth exactly what you paid for them. If you don't pay for YouTube that is.

 

I did an article and tutorial a couple years ago on Premiere's CM for MixingLight. It is still available there, and I believe still outside the paywall, available for anyone to see. I spent hours on phone calls and Zoom with Francis Crossman to prepare for it. He was then "merely" a color engineer, now is co-product manager for Premiere Pro. I gave a presentation on it in the Flanders Scientific/MixingLight booth at NAB 2019.

 

And then before publication, there were numerous emails between Lars Borg, Adobe's chief color scientist, myself, and Robbie Carman and Pat Inhofer, two of the founders and both noted colorists themselves. They had tons of highly technical questions they wanted answered specifically to double check everything in my article/tutorial.

 

So ... I've been through the details thoroughly, and my comments are not just off the cuff. And at the moment, I'm working on testing a TON of different media and workflows as with all the changes in CM in Pr2022, it's time for another detailed article/tutorial.

 

Also note, most colorists are Mac people so my understanding of Pr/Mac interactions has to be accurate. I'm also always open to corrections ... as not only the Premiere CM is changing, it seems nearly everything is in transition.

 

If you get deep into color science for video imagery ... you get heavy into camera/scene referred transforms, timeline/working spaces, display transforms, IDT, EOTF, RRT, and more acronyms than you can track. A massive and deep rabbit hole that can mimic a black hole it is believed ...

 

I didn't say anything about two different 'curves' but that the official Rec.709 standards allow for a primary gamma of 2.4 in a room with a specified maximum light level ... it's fairly 'dim' ... and precise standards for the backlight upon the wall behind the Grade 1 reference monitor also. The monitor to be at 100 nits.

 

However for working in a "bright room environment" the standard doth allow also 2.2. Which is often used also when doing work intended for the web. So there's a preferred gamma, and an allowable one given a brighter room. Which affects how we react to brightness ... hence it makes perfect sense.

 

Premiere's origins are a totally Rec.709 closed system. It assumed it didn't need to do CM because the user would know to be on a totally calibrated/profiled Rec.709 compliant system.

 

Then Mac came out with the Retina monitors, a beautiful screen ... but with ColorSync using 1.96 gamma and not applying the required second transform (also known as Bt1886). And trouble ensued.

 

Premiere's developers came up with first the Display color management option, which tells Premiere not to assume Rec.709 monitor, and instead check the ICC profile of the monitor and remap the image to Rec.709 within that ICC profile. Then additionally, a LUT that could be applied in the export dialog to 'mod' the file darker so it looked the same outside Pr on a Mac as it did inside.

 

Unfortunately that also means it looks darker on any fully Rec.709 compliant system. And will typically fail any broadcast quality control check.

 

BlackMagic's engineers tumbled to the odd datum that ColorSync will apply gamma 2.4 if you feed it the second NLC tag of "2" ... which is by the standards listed as "unspecified". So they decided to offer the export option of "Rec.709-A" and yes, A is speficially for Apple.

 

That embeds the NLC tag 1-2-1, and ColorSync will use a 2.4 gamma. Yea!

 

Unfortunately, that means that on many non-Mac systems, you still end up with a file that plays much darker. Not ... so good.

 

Because you cannot make a file that will play the same when treated with strikingly different CM practices. But as we move more and more into HDR, over time this may become moot.

 

Neil

 

 

 

 

Everyone's mileage always varies ...