Loss of quality when exporting

[R Neil Haugen]

Nima,

The OP was talking about resolution. What you're talking about is (it sounds like) contrast/saturation ... a totally different issue.

I note you're on a Mac and using QuickTime player to "check" your exported file. Besides QuickTime player having issues, the newer Macs with the Retina screens use an Apple specific (and totally unique) "Display-P3" color space ... which is NOT in any way close to Rec.709 standards, which is what Premiere (and all other pro editing apps use). Added onto that, the Mac ColorSync utility doesn't apply the full Rec.709 standards to media displayed on the Retina screens, applying only the camera transform and not the display transform. Plus an ... odd ... interpretation of "rgb gamma".

Within Premiere on that machine, make sure that in the Preferences you have "Enable Display Color Management" is checked. That at least will attempt to show a correct image within Premiere on the internal monitors ... Source, Program, and Reference. So that what you do inside Premiere on that machine will look similar when output and viewed on another system with appropriate Rec.709 monitors.

It doesn't "fix" the file when viewed outside Premiere on that Mac ... as there ain't no way to do so. Without making the file nearly unusable outside the Macosphere that is.

This thread has a LOT of information, including the original post, written by a product support staffer and at the time a lead color engineer working together ... Caroline and Francis Crossman. Francis is now a co-product manager for Premiere.

Why does my color look different?

I've done tutorials over on the MixingLight subscription site on the subject, after spending hours with Francis.

How Do You Finish at the Highest Possible Quality in Premiere Pro CC?

Color management doesn't happen "naturally". As a user, you have to set up a color managed workflow. And it's a bit of a rabbit hole. A deep, deep rabbit hole.

Neil

[Nima Tajbakhsh]

Thanks for reply.

I just checked the "Enable Display Color Management" box.

I recently purchased my iMac and figured it was a good to go but I was wondering what was wrong with my exports...so in order for me to get the same quality as in premiere I essentially have to convert or apply a final rec 709 LUT to all my footage?

And I always checked render at max depth , use maximum render quality because almost every tutorial on youtube about exporting HQ video in premrie said to do so but I guess not!

I know you have discussed in the threads but if you can reply on what I need to do in order to get accurate colors with highest quality export, i'd really appreicate it! Here are my specs for my iMac

[R Neil Haugen]

I recently purchased my iMac and figured it was a good to go but I was wondering what was wrong with my exports...

Really, this could have been the purchase of any computer with monitor ... so  any people simply assume there is a standard applied or universal "way" that all color is controlled within the computer and monitor. Which ... isn't actually so.

It's exacerbated in the Macosphere due to their rather oddly conceived and applied "Display-P3" color space and their OS color management utility being designed to apply color controls to Rec.709 media that are clearly outside the rather well defined standard.

The user really needs to take charge and see that they have a complete system that will handle color properly. Understand, no matter what the monitor hype says ... no monitor you're going to be getting comes to you with properly applied and utilized by the OS color management. Period.

You need to be able to do basic calibration with a puck/software system like the i1 Display Pro or Spyder gear.

You need to control which ICC profile your OS uses for which monitor.

Do those, you're fine. Don't ... and there's no way you have any proof that anything you're doing is even close in color to what it would be seen as on a properly setup system. And if you don't know what it would appear like on a properly setup system, you have even less idea what it will appear like Out In The Wild, where every device is set up differently, every monitor with its own "unique" color/tonal display habits, and no way of knowing if the device is used in a dark room or sunlight.

As to your question ... using the Enable Display Color Management option gives you a good chance of "seeing" your material within Premiere Pro similar to how it would be seen on a 'normal' system that fully recognizes and respects Rec.709 standards ... which are still used for probably over 90% of broadcast/professional media these days.

But your Mac ain't a "standard" system because of the OS, the Retina monitor using Display-P3, and the Mac ColorSync utility not respecting both parts of the Rec.709 standard. So ... outside of Premiere (with EDCM active) on that Mac ... media exported from Premiere will not look the same as when inside Premiere. Hook up a calibrated Rec.709 monitor to that Mac, view the media on that monitor ... it should look good. And as you expect.

You can apply a LUT on export such that your Rec.709 project will look probably appropriate on the Mac outside of Premiere. However ... that exported file displayed on any properly setup Rec.709 system will be well "off" from looking normal. As you can't make one file that will look good both places due to the way ColorSync is designed to work on the Mac.

Neil

[Nima Tajbakhsh]

Honestly I've been editing for 10 years and I just started noticing this with my recent iMac purchase. Before everything looked the same as in Premire as it would on exprort and I edited projects on many different macs... It just doesnt make sense to me why it would look different on export when it's the same screen (even if the caliberation is off on the new imacs, it should look the same on export because it's being displayed on that same screen!?!)

Anyways I did download the Quicktime Conversion LUT and while it did make things a tad bit darker it matched closer to how it looks in Premire.

Thanks for the reply. I have to give davinci resolve and FCP X a try and see if the issue still there.   

[R Neil Haugen]

It isn't "the screen" that's the worst part of the issue. It's a beautiful screen. Yea, set to a little-used color primary space, but ... if things are properly mapped to appropriate color spaces within the OS and applications, that's not an insurmountable problem.

It's the color management of your system, which is different than older Mac's. Older Mac's used an sRGB color primary standard, and apparently pretty well complied with the Rec.709 standards for applying both the camera and display transform functions. So on your older rig, you were pretty close to standards.

Your new Mac abandoned sRGB color primaries, and the ColorSync utility of the OS only applies the camera transform, NOT the accompanying display transform ... so it is at odds with the rest of the editing world. And is no longer even close to editing standards.

Premiere is built assuming the "internal" monitors of Source, Reference, and Program will be displayed on a system with proper broadcast color management ... that will honor video sRGB and that the monitor is calibrated to Rec.709/gamma-2.4/100 nits, the standard.

Your new Mac ... isn't.

So the Enable Display Color Management option allows Premiere to "look" at the ICC profile used for any monitor in the OS, and attempt to remap the image to show a proper video sRGB/Rec.709/gamma-2.4/100-nits image on that screen ... so while working within Premiere, you are at least close to proper standards.

But outside Premiere, none of you apps and viewers are applying proper standards to the media. That's what things look different within Premiere and outside it.

Outside of Premiere ... how directly and properly a video image is mapped within a P3 color space back to a video sRGB image is ... questionable, and may vary a bit per application. Second, the gamma used is also going to vary, again perhaps by application, and will probably not be a properly applied Rec.709 gamma.

It is not unusual of course for Apple to create a unique environment ... then "juice" the "house" applications to work within it. Some users have found that working within FCPx they do get complete uniformity of image viewing within that app and outside on their Macs ... and that it transfers to other non-Mac devices as they expect.

I've heard of many FCPx users though that complain that outside of the Macosphere, all their images are displayed "wrong" ... which is quite informative in its own way. That indicates that they simply aren't seeing "correct" video media imagery inside their computer, period.

I do know that no professional colorist I've ever heard of uses a Retina screen for color reference work. As a beautiful UI screen, yes. But for color reference ... no. For all the reasons listed above (and a few more).

Many of us work with two or more screens. I'm currently using three ... two for UI, one for reference. I know that many Mac users get another screen to use for their color reference screen. Like anyone else.

Neil

[Nima Tajbakhsh]

Strange that no where on YouTube or product reviews of the new iMacs talk about this. I do apprecitate your reply as it has calmed me down since I noticed the difference in my exports. So with that being said, I looked on display settings on my mac and surprisngly saw they had a rec 709 option for color so I since then switched to this color mode. I hope this will resolve the issue otherwise im all out of luck unless I buy a second screen which brings me to my next question. Which monitor is good bang for the buck that's already caliberated to display accurate colors?

While I'm not an amatuer videographer/editor I just want to create a work flow that works for me and not have to read up about color space and just confuse myself with technicalities of it. I just want my exports to look the same as it does in premiere. It could all be so simple! lol