Secondary Display (Mercury Transmit) Color / Gamma Changes.

[Pepe Gazzo]

I own two monitors, same brands, same model, same everything. 

Somehow, when I activate Mercury Transmit de activated monitor is nothing compared colorwise to the first display. It looks like it has a Output Color Space automatically build in.

If I interpet the footage as Rec 709 (it is originally 2100) the main display changes and becomes the same as the Mercury Transmited one. That's weird.  

If I activate the Color Management options in Premiere Pro, both displays become the same, but I know it's not color accurate (both become darker) because the deliverable is for YouTube, so essentially I don't need this option. 

Any advice to make both look the same withouth this weird workarounds? 

[R Neil Haugen · Accepted solution]

First, for the vast majority of users, ESPECIALLY if you haven't got a full-on pro monitor setup with i/o box and complete monitor/calibration setup ... USE that Display Color Management option! Premiere will look at the ICC profile of the monitors, and give the most accurate Rec.709 or HLG image it can within those limitations.

Second ... I work with and teach pro colorists, the vast majority of whom have never yet delivered a client HDR project. Some of the people I work with were some of the earliest adopters and teachers of pro DolbyVision HDR for say Netflix or whatever. How early an adopter? They were hired by Dolby Labs to produce the Dolby in-house DV training videos.

They consider HDR still pretty much the Wild Wild West ... the various consumer monitors are so freaking different in what they do to the files, from varying capabilities of "HDR" from 350 nits (naw, that ain't really HDR ... ) to maybe 800 or so. Very few consumer screens can even make 1,000 nits yet.

So the brightness of the viewing screens will be all OVER the freaking place. AND ... all consumer monitors/TVs do things to both "enhance the viewing experience" and to protect the screen from burning out pixels ... which means they constantly jack the image up and down in totally unpredictable ways.

And that's why 'grading' on any consumer display is so ... awkward. That screen is going to be doing things constantly to the image, and you simply cannot 'see' what that screen is doing. But another screen will not do the same thing ... so how do you know anything you're doing is 'correct'? Yea, that's ... not a great situation. (And yes, I want a good grading monitor less than $5,000 ... but I want a lot of other things too ... )

The only screens that don't constantly jack the image are the pro reference monitors, still above $17,000 for one.

All this to say even though it may look amazing in some ways, what others will see ... is anyone's guess. It's worse if you grade on a consumer screen. But this is a problem even IF you grade on a flat-out high-end pro colorist's setup. All screens out there will vary your video in totally unpredictable ways.

Now back to your comments. You have several assumptions that are very common for new video workers, but they are actually totally incorrect assumptions. Lose them. Set that Display Color Management option to ON. It doesn't matter who you deliver to.The standards are the same. And especially, in your setup, that will get the most accurate display. Period.

Because you want your exports to look relatively as close to pro produced media on any screen out there. And all pro media is created tight to the standards. Vary from the standards, and it's real clear immediately ... you ain't pro.

Next ... set your black & white points and even main midrange values checking the values BY THE SCOPES, not by your eyes. Use the Waveform for black/white/contrast ... I prefer in the 'YC no chroma' setting. Use the RGB Parade for checking general color balance and casts. Use the Vectorscope to check both the specific hue of things and to set overall saturation.

They will give you exact, useful, reliable, and constant values. Your eyes and any monitor are ok for comparing apples to apples, but horrible at absolutes like blacks/whites/contrast overall/saturation. Pro colorists actually pay quite a bit for software that only provides a series of scopes of the image they are fed. And often, they setup another computer linked to an outboard i/o device of  their working one, to show "outboard" scopes on a separate system. That's how important they are.

SDR is the most common color space still ... WAY more common and more controllable than HDR. Especially as most screens don't do HDR at all, or if they do, it's pretty limited.

For SDR/Rec.709 workflows, yes ... any HLG and many log-encoded clips MUST be set in the Project panel color management settings ... right-click/Modify/Interpret Footage ... set the Override value to Rec.709. Then set the Sequence CM to Rec.709, and make sure to use only the 'standard' export presets.

For HDR work, at this time, stick with HLG. All clips must be either showing as in HLG color space in the clip properties panel in Premiere, OR be set to the Rec.2100/HLG setting in the Override-to options. Then use a sequence set to Rec.2100/HLG, and ONLY use export presets that list HLG in the preset name!

And ... make sure both your OS and your monitor are set to and working in HDR.

BTW ... I'm the guy what wrote most of the forum FAQs on HDR work over the last two years. Here's some forum posts, some mine, some others.

And feel free to ask away, don't worry about saying you don't understand something. This stuff can be horribly confusing to colorists, for cryin' out loud!

Neil

FAQ:PremierePro 2022 Color Management for Log/RAW Media

A User Guide: Color Correction in HDR in Premiere 2022

How to Set Monitors for HDR work in Premiere Pro 2022?

HDR workflow in Premiere Pro User Guide

[Pepe Gazzo]

Man, let my just say, from all the times I have ever written in a Forum this has been by far the most in-depth teaching and recourseful asnwer I've ever had. Thank you so much. 

[Pepe Gazzo]

@R Neil Haugen I have a few questions, if I may. The clips that were shoote have this format: 

Color Space: Rec. 2100 HLG

Color Space Overide. Off
Input LUT: None. 

Do you recommend overriding in to Rec709 in the Interpret panel and set my sequence to Rec709 aswell? 

[R Neil Haugen]

Yes ... for nearly all uses.

Much as I want HDR to be The Thing ... I was on a panel of pro colorists over at MixingLight.com the other day, and there's some awesomely experienced HDR cats there. But even then, some of the panel & most of the audience haven't done a job in HDR yet. 

And the experienced ones on the panel included Joey D'Anna and Patrick Inhofer ... were 2/3rds of the team that created the Dolby Labs DolbyVision in-house training vids. Joey has a full Flanders HDR Grade 1 Reference monitor ... over $20Gs there alone ... and an Advance panel ... and ... says that as much fun in some ways as HDR is, between making sure you can pass the QC for the DV video, there's the trim pass for SDR, and ... you just trust your system is as well calibrated as you tested it as.

But even then ... what happens after it leaves your suite is anybody's guess.

I figure ... if one of the early adopters and trainers for pro level HDR work finds it a bit dicey ... I'm not at that level either for kit or for knowledge.

Neil

[Pepe Gazzo]

Thank. I think now I'm even more confused, though. I made some kind of "troubleshooting" where I switched the Color Management ON / OFF and Footage / Secuence Interpretation to 709. These are the results. In the file name you can see the configuration I used. 

As you can see, skin looks way "better" with the Color Management On, BUT the Footage in HLG 2100 and Secuence to HLG 2100. 

When I turn Management ON, and Interpret the Footage to Rec709 plus the secuence in Rec709, it all gets a little green / dark. 

So I guess my question here is, what are we exactly trying to achieve with all this conversions and stuff? 

THANK A LOT BTW.

[R Neil Haugen · Accepted solution]

The Rec.2100 and Rec.709/sRGB color spaces are very, very different. Including the 'shapes' of them are not the same, so transforming from one to the other is not always visually 'equal'.

You have clips that are HLG, using the Rec.2100 color space. Those clips can be used in either an HLG workflow, which is an HDR form. Or a Rec.709 workflow, after using color management controls to perform a transform from the larger Rec.2100 color space to the smaller Rec.709/sRGB color space.

Anytime you perform a transform, there may be 'shifts' that need to be corrected for best visual appearance. The transforms are designed to get the most data into the different 'space' and volume in both the most accurate and the safest way, without clipping, crushing, or 'blockin' values. Not to be "pretty".

So yes, when working these clips in a color managed workflow in Rec.709, you will need to do slightly different color corrections than you would in an HLG/HDR sequence and export.

Color space conversions and transforms are an immense part of a pro colorist's job. And also, a massive part of any discussions between colorists as ... they are complex and confusing and have MASSIVE effect on any project one works on.

So yes, it can be very confusing. But ... the goal is always to be as accurate in displaying the pixels as possible.

So on your system, use the Display Color Management preference option for everything. That will get you the most consistent and most accruate view of your media.

Neil

[Pepe Gazzo]

@R Neil Haugen Let me just say I stalked your profile, and OH MY GOD. The quality and quantity of your replies and knowledge on this forum is just amazing. This is the first time I actually use the forum myself and I can't be happier. Thank you for your contribution to my posts and all of us who struggle with some doubts. Hero.

[R Neil Haugen]

I love to troubleshoot. I love to help, and I love to teach.

Quite a bit like a lot of others around here. We each have areas we are very deep in, and other areas we can normally help in, and some ... we're trying to learn ourselves.

But it's nice to be appreciated ... 😉

Neil

[YANNA26705213grl5]

https://www.arri.com/en/lighting/led/skypanel#accordion-194608 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXYKhZdGF6s 

[GundamVanguard]

It's possible I've lost my mind, but I've calibrated my secondary display to gamma 2.4 709 and make use of a built in clamp for the monitor (still present with or without), but the displays are still darker than an expected 2.4 curve, almost as if it's misinterpreting the information it's pulling the from the ICC profile, and considering it 2.2, and toning the 2.4 gamma down as such. Does Premiere color management always assume a gamma of 2.2? I've been unable to get remotely accurate results with displays calibrated to 2.4 and bt.1866.

[R Neil Haugen]

Do you have the Display Color Management option checked in Premiere's Preferences?

If so, try unchecked. Premiere's CM is set to mod the Program monitor according to the ICC profile IF that is checked.

For those of us who do have accurate external calibration and profile created for our reference monitor, that option can cause a problem.

About everyone else should have it checked.

[근육질푸키]

I also have this. but when I unable, I can't preview HDR anymore. my display has 2.2 gamma profile but 2 displays have diffrent Mercury TRansmit colors. any solution?

[R Neil Haugen]

HDR formats use a different display transform than SDR/Rec.709. So if the monitor has HDR options, it should change to the appropriate HDR transform.

And one other thing if a Rec.709 "pluge", the bars & tone clip, look too dark. You might have something either GPU setup or the monitor itself set to "full" range.

NEVER set a Rec.709 monitor to full. Auto or limited are the correct choices. There are no more levels in Rec.709 media recording full or legal. It only changes how they are encoded.

And unless you have 12 bit full RGB media, always the 4444 stuff, your media is supposed to follow the Rec.709 encoding standard of limited.

Marketing idiots for many camera makers now allow using "full" for YUV media, technically Y/Cb-Cr. It doesn't give you any more usable data, but it does foul up post-processing.