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Jochem van Dieten Must Be Relieve of His Moderator Status (Mark II)

Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009 Sep 16, 2009

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The first thread on this matter seems to have been deleted, presumeably by Mr. van Dieten

It is my assertion that Jochem van Dieten has abused his moderator's priveledges by innappropriately deleting threads and posts with which he does not agree. He has been rude not only to some of the more 'curmudgeonly' forum members, but also to those whom are not troublesome (Claudio, 'GreenJumpyOne' are two that spring to mind). He has been arbitrary-seeming in many of his decisions as moderator; he has shown himself hostile, uncooperative and on occasion childish. He has not, seemingly, been held to account for his reprehensible, unprofessional conduct, and is (IMO) a disgrace to Adobe Corp. He has no 'people skills' and is thus an exceptionally bad choice for the position of moderator.

If you agree, please say so. If possible, give some examples of Mr. van Dieten's behaviour which illustrate my assertions above.

I am posting this partly to give people who wish to have a venue to complain about censorship (and other) issues may do so without taking up more space in another thread.

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Advocate , Sep 16, 2009 Sep 16, 2009

The fact you can even ask the question speaks for itself.

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Guru ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Yes, we're out of control.

Ansury wrote:

Well, at least it says cats and not something offensive! 

huh.JPG

Do we really need to be herded that badly? (honest question)

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Hello again

Geez, is it just me or do you simply dislike anyone with a "Community Expert" badge?

To be honest, I do enjoy the status. It has benefits. And for further honesty, I feel I've worked very hard to earn those benefits. I think that's evidenced by the post count for each of my identities. (I'm known as RoboWizard as well as Captiv8r). I put lots of effort into providing helpful, accurate and real life exerience using the Adobe products I do. If they are willing to recognize me for that, why not?

You may find that puzzling and ask why the multiple identities. It stems from the FuseTalk forums. With that incarnation of the forums you could only subscribe to one forum at a time with an E-Mail address. This meant that you needed multiple E-Mail addresses if you wished to subscribe to multiple forums. Hence the split personality.

As my mode of operation is centered around E-Mail subscriptions, it would take me more time than I care to expend to create a new anonymous E-Mail address, then subscribe to the forums just to prove to you that I'd still be helping others without having the status. My comments regarding the judgement were not aimed at you, they were aimed at the post by Ann Shelbourne. So I'm unsure why you feel that they were aimed at you.

To be blatantly honest, I've seen quite a lot of hostility here. And most of it seems to be coming from ten or so individuals. None of which are Mr. Van Dieten. I just view him as having the inglorious job of trying to bring some order to a town in the wild wild west.

I can personally attest that it takes quite a lot to be banned. I've witnessed it first hand. So if someone were banned, they likely totally were far beyond deserving it by their own actions. It never ceases to amaze me how some folks are able to deny that their actions have consequences. Just because someone is very knowledgeable about a product does not grant them free license to be abusive, arrogant and obnoxious toward anyone. That sort of attitude will do far more to drive customers away than forum software or loss of helpful people will.

Cheers... Rick

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Geez, is it just me or do you simply dislike anyone with a "Community Expert" badge?

While I (and others) find the titles pompous, it is more your smiley "nothing wrong here!" attitude which annoys me. Your ability to seemingly double-think annoys me. (I find it a bit rich that someone with a title should complain of elitism!)

To be honest, I do enjoy the status. It has benefits.

Gosh, golly! The truth comes out!

And for further honesty, I feel I've worked very hard to earn those benefits.

Good for you. And so had many others who did not enjoy "Community Expert" status. Wonder if they feel that you're elitist?

And most of it seems to be coming from ten or so individuals. None of which are Mr. Van Dieten.

I gave examples. Do you diagree that Mr. Van Dieten has not shown himself hostile? Really?

Just because someone is very knowledgeable about a product does not grant them free license to be abusive, arrogant and obnoxious toward anyone. That

Sure I agree. Tell that to Mr. Van Dieten; I have given examples of his obnoxious behaviour. I can find more.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As I see things, the problem here really is that some seem to wish to bash and harass those that express a different view than they do.

While I'm sure that many here believe the Jive software is a total piece of garbage, I disagree. Perhaps it doesn't work as you would like it. Perhaps it operates differently for you than it does for me. But by and large it's an improvement from what existed before it.

Again, keep in mind that my own experience was limited to the FuseTalk forums Macromedia had. Not the Adobe forums. So my view is most likely stilted. I've never once tried to deny that fact.

As for the elitism, I view that as being anyone who feels their status is better than others. I don't feel that way. I come from the standpoint of having been a new user once. I know what it was like to have a job looming and basically nobody to ask why certain things didn't work as I expected them to. So I'm happy to share my expertise. I'm always trying to view things from a newbie standpoint. Others have chided me for being patient and answering the same silly question for the thousandth time. They goad me with, Geez, make them look it up in the help! Unfortunately they have managed to lose sight of that situation.

I know you don't like it that I have a positive attitude. I really feel sorry for folks that don't share a good outlook on life and that seem to feel everything in the universe is nefariously conspiring against them. Not because I think they need the pity, but because I try to imagine how awful they must feel inside to interpret things that way. Hey, I'm a happy person and wish to view things in a positive light. Just different strokes for different folks. I'm happy, you don't like it. No big deal. Just ignore my silly smiling face and positive attitude.

If any hostility has been sensed by Mr. Van Dieten, I find that it only seems to come after his patience has been exhausted. Others create post after post after post with apparently nothing more than the sole intention of goading him into action. Then they complain because moderation occurs. Then there are some, that after having been banned because of their bad behavior choose to continue the parade by creating a new identity that makes it so obvious who they are and wander in acting all shocked at how offensive this area seems to be while they are all innocent as a newborn. This place really is a side show to behold at times!

Cheers... Rick

Here's an extra smiley for ya!

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Advocate ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

While I'm sure that many here believe the Jive software is a total piece of garbage, I disagree. Perhaps it doesn't work as you would like it. Perhaps it operates differently for you than it does for me. But by and large it's an improvement from what existed before it.


Wha..wha...

WHAT?!?!

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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As for the elitism, I view that as being anyone who feels their status is better than others. I don't feel that way.

Oh, how sweet. But, it seems to me that having a title tends to make it look as though one has, somehow, more "status" than others, and that is, IMO, elitist. And, again, I remind you that many others have been just as helpful and wonderful as you, yet, somehow do not have the status (and advantages) accorded to those with "Expert" status. If you can with a straight face say that this will not be perceived as elitist, you are even better a double thinker than I already think you are.

I know you don't like it that I have a positive attitude.

Ah! Everyone loves a patronizing comment! 

Y'all can be positive all ya want, but when you try to re-write my perceptions by simply saying "I don see it that way" without offering any (IMO) convincing arguments, or dealing with my specific examples I gave in support of my points of view, you come across to me as a vapid double-thinker more concerned to shut people up than deal with the issue at hand. Sorry if you don't like it that I don't have a positive attitude towards your statement.

If any hostility has been sensed by Mr. Van Dieten, I find that it only seems to come after his patience has been exhausted.

You mean "showed by Mr. van Dieten", I presume? And that only applies to him, I suppose? And no one else has had their patience exhausted? In any case, you tacitly admit that Mr. Van Dieten has shown hostility, I think.

Just ignore my silly smiling face and positive attitude

I will ignore you. Thanks.

And, Harbs..... I wonder how many examples you would want before you admit to what (to many of us) is glaringly obvious. Anyway, you've said you're keeping out of this (or words to that effect). Good. If you are not prepared to back up your assertions (as I have tried to do), then you should not be arguing, IMO. And, no.... I don't have the time either to bring out an exhaustive catalogue of "JVD's greatest hits" to convince you and others who will not hear.

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Fr. Watson wrote:

As for the elitism, I view that as being anyone who feels their status is better than others. I don't feel that way.

Oh, how sweet. But, it seems to me that having a title tends to make it look as though one has, somehow, more "status" than others, and that is, IMO, elitist. And, again, I remind you that many others have been just as helpful and wonderful as you, yet, somehow do not have the status (and advantages) accorded to those with "Expert" status. If you can with a straight face say that this will not be perceived as elitist, you are even better a double thinker than I already think you are.


Regardless, of title we all put our pants on in the morning "One leg at a time".

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Phillip, that's the most sensible thing I've heard in this thread today. You are 100% correct and said it well.

Cheers... Rick

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Thanks. Boiled down that means regardless of whether you have a Title or not you shouldn't feel you any better than anyone else. because the person you might be talking down to, might have more experience than you do.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Thanks for the explanation PJ!  

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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that applies to both users and the so called experts.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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I agree with that and I do notice that Phillip seems to draw fire from his peers. It's not pleasant to witness so it can't be pleasant for him either!

Cheers... Rick

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Captiv8r wrote:

Hello again

Geez, is it just me or do you simply dislike anyone with a "Community Expert" badge?

To be honest, I do enjoy the status. It has benefits. And for further honesty, I feel I've worked very hard to earn those benefits. I think that's evidenced by the post count for each of my identities. (I'm known as RoboWizard as well as Captiv8r). I put lots of effort into providing helpful, accurate and real life exerience using the Adobe products I do. If they are willing to recognize me for that, why not?

You may find that puzzling and ask why the multiple identities. It stems from the FuseTalk forums. With that incarnation of the forums you could only subscribe to one forum at a time with an E-Mail address. This meant that you needed multiple E-Mail addresses if you wished to subscribe to multiple forums. Hence the split personality.

As my mode of operation is centered around E-Mail subscriptions, it would take me more time than I care to expend to create a new anonymous E-Mail address, then subscribe to the forums just to prove to you that I'd still be helping others without having the status. My comments regarding the judgement were not aimed at you, they were aimed at the post by Ann Shelbourne. So I'm unsure why you feel that they were aimed at you.

To be blatantly honest, I've seen quite a lot of hostility here. And most of it seems to be coming from ten or so individuals. None of which are Mr. Van Dieten. I just view him as having the inglorious job of trying to bring some order to a town in the wild wild west.

I can personally attest that it takes quite a lot to be banned. I've witnessed it first hand. So if someone were banned, they likely totally were far beyond deserving it by their own actions. It never ceases to amaze me how some folks are able to deny that their actions have consequences. Just because someone is very knowledgeable about a product does not grant them free license to be abusive, arrogant and obnoxious toward anyone. That sort of attitude will do far more to drive customers away than forum software or loss of helpful people will.

Cheers... Rick

Our opinion of him would be increased greatly if he did not consider moderating this Group akin to herding a bunch of cats.

(Although as a Cat own I must admit my cat exhibits much intelligence) But no wonder he doesn't take our suggestion seriously if he considers us as no better than cats.

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 01, 2009 Oct 01, 2009

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To be clear about this recent post in question,

I wasn't looking for a complaint forum.  I wasn't asking for help.  I was simply making a comment about Adobe service.  Any complaint I have with Adobe was lodged when I opened a case file.

I was posting (my 1st post) in a forum called GENERAL FORUM -> FORUM COMMENTS.  It was a general comment aimed at no one in particular.  I was frustrated and wanted to vent.

Admittedly I didn't read the 'sticky'.  I did however peruse numerous other thread titles that seemed, on the surface, to cover a wide range of topics.  That was enough I suppose to confirm for me that this was the place people talk about things that don't have defined forums (remember, I was not lodging a formal complaint).

Had the forum title said COMMENTS ABOUT THE FORUM I might not have skipped the sticky, in fact I wouldn't have posted here at all.  I am not new to on-line forums I just missed the sticky.

Other forums I've been part of have gone so far as having the thread moved to the appropriate forum and a polite pm sent along telling me where it is, and as a result teaching me a bit about the forum.  It's quite simple really.  If Mods have the ability to lock a thread then they should be given the ability to move it.  It's clear to me that it would certainly save a lot of grief.

What I saw here was a couple of people speaking out about something I assumed had some historical context, then have their posts deleted and the thread eventually locked.  My question is why wasn't the thread locked immediately after the first explanation?  Nearly an hour went by before it was locked.

I must say that when I read Ann's first response (one of the ones that was deleted) to Jochem's response to me, I got it.  I just don't understand what the point was in keeping the thread open in the first place.

Anyway,  I'm not here to stir things up.  I'd like to take part in the forum.  I will post in the appropriate forums from now on and navigate the politics of a new forum and it's rules accordingly.

thanks,

g.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Fr. Watson wrote:

No one has offered any objections to what I said (and illustrated with examples and quotes), so I must assume that we are in agreement that Mr. van Dieten's behaviour has been childish, unprofessional, hostile, and unhelpful, has helped to escalate the conflicts and feelings of hostility here, and so on.

No, that's not a good assumption. It's just that most of us have more important things to do with our lives (presumably you as well) than discuss this issue back and forth here.

I hardly feel that the two examples you showed support your case at all, but that's just me...

You can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. I'd argue it out with you, but I have nothing to gain from doing so, so I'll keep myself out of this.

Harbs

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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I hardly feel that the two examples you showed support your case at all, but that's just me...

Now, while I DID say I didn't have time for an exhaustive catalogue, there are some easy examples of people's reaction to Mr. van Dieten in this thread:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2220022#2220022

that I do feel worth sharing for those who do not click links. These responses are not from 'old-timers' - they are from Users who have come into contact with Mr. van Dieten. Bolding mine.  And these examples are just from one thread in one forum.

By the way, I really liked the way you deflected the other guy's question with rude comments and implying that he is an idiot incapable of posting correctly on forums. Nicely done. Should look good on your performance review.

I can't wait to see your rude reply to my post.

Signed

Frustrated Adobe Acrobat user who needs a new activation code because the ******* menu would not let him deactivate his old installation.

PS Gee, I hope I'm not posting this in the wrong forum or replying to a one month old message or anything else dumb like that. If so I apologize in advance.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

Kudos to the [edited for content] moderator who would rather act as a procedural proctor, rather than get of his rear and actually offer useful advice to a paying customer. It's attitudes like yours "well, I am technically correct" rather than providing customer support that makes people just love big companies. Why do people steal software? Because of attitudes like your when they try to get support, any support, from the company they bought the software from.

I asked here first how to get a new activation code without going through the phone system, and didn't receive an answer. I did find that information on my own a few days later, by going through "my account". The moderator could have given me that information, I think, but chose to lecture me about posting in the wrong place instead (although it certainly seemed like a related topic to me.

"Cheers"

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Ah but if your a true MacroMedia Follower (had an account at both MacroMedia and Adobe I purchase two versions of DreamWeaver for Macintosh and then updated to Studio 8) You will remember There was no love lost for adobe from Macromedia Followers, But sale/Takeover was Rammed down their throat as well. We all on the forum vehemently voiced our dismay at the takeover.

The number one reason Adobe took over Macromedia was to gain control of Flash. There weren't too disappointed to get DreamWeaver The better web design program and Fireworks. As for the other stuff such as Contribute, if it dies so be it.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 16, 2009 Sep 16, 2009

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jochemd wrote:

So who did I get banned this time?

When you get a bad reputation, you get blamed for everything.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 16, 2009 Sep 16, 2009

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First, JayJhabrix got banned from posting...

Now it's Jhabrix that's banned... and not a by your leave nor explanation! Someone is getting very personal and, for some reason, 'Jhabrix' seems to be like a red flag to a bull!

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Participant ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Geez, is it just me or do you simply dislike anyone with a "Community Expert" badge?

I find the self-satisfied sanctimonious behaviour by so many of those that sport that badge to be entirely obnoxious and

I have yet to find anything that members of that group have posted to be in the least worthy of my respect.

The arrival of these so-called Community Expert people has changed the entire atmosphere of the Forums and has effectively destroyed the Community that existed here for more than ten years before their intervention.

That is why I now come here so seldom and am no longer willing to spend time on answering questions in the Product Forums.

I now spend my on-line time elsewhere and am delighted that so many former members of the Adobe Photography Forum seem to have found their way to the same place!

Yes, the root cause for the present situation lies entirely at the feet of you … and the rest of your CE gang!

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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I find the self-satisfied sanctimonious behaviour by so many of those that sport that badge to be entirely obnoxious and I have yet to find anything that members of that group have posted to be in the least worthy of my respect.

I'm grateful you used the word "Many" and not "All". I personally know several Community Experts that in no way exhibit those characteristics.

I never heard of you prior to today, so I'm not sure how many of us are gravely concerned that we failed to post anything gaining your respect. We help those that need it and they are happy with that. And that's more than good enough for us.

The arrival of these so-called Community Expert people has changed the entire atmosphere of the Forums and has effectively destroyed the Community that existed here for more than ten years before their intervention.

In the fora where I and my fellow Community Experts operate, things are better than ever. Nothing was destroyed it only improved with the new forum. And believe it or not, it actually got even better after some of us became moderators because we are now able to offer helpful things like making announcements about planned forum outages and the like. We have created sticky topic areas and other things intended to assist others.

As an aside, we didn't intervene. We were invited to actively participate and are happy to do so. That way the load can be shared.

That is why I now come here so seldom and am no longer willing to spend time on answering questions in the Product Forums.

I suppose you perceive posting comments here is worth your effort?

I now spend my on-line time elsewhere and am delighted that so many former members of the Adobe Photography Forum seem to have found their way to the same place!

Cool, that'll show em! Stop helping folks that need the expertise you have. Tha'll send Adobe the right message! I think not.

Yes, the root cause for the present situation lies entirely at the feet of you … and the rest of your CE gang!

Wow, totally my issue! How powerful I've suddenly seemed to become. Dang, I must have missed the day they handed out the blue suit with the red cape. Oh wait, maybe it was the black suit with the mask! Or maybe the green one. Hmmm, what to wear what to wear.

I guess now we know where whine comes from. Sour grapes!

I honestly do wish you the very best with wherever you landed. Life is really too short to be unhappy with wherever you are!

Cheers... Rick

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Well I must say I have never seen so many unanswered questions. Could that be that the people who answered them in the past are now gone? I would say yes. I really don't care anymore It gives me a good laugh to see how long these people wait for a wrong answer now. Adobe's eye is getting blacker and blacker with this mess, and the mods are doing nothing to help the situation.

Better hurry up and answer those questions you so called experts people need answers.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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There is a lot of sanctimonious waffle from the people outside the original, genuine, community which only exposes thier ignorance of what it was like for us before jive.


They might still be happy in their little enclaves but they don't know what we are talking about here.


It's like banging your head against a brick adobe wall!

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Mentor ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Yes this group of mods think they are so cool!

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Participant ,
Sep 17, 2009 Sep 17, 2009

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Yes this group of mods think they are so cool!

Indeed, the conceited self-righteousness oozies from their every pore and the more that they try to justify themselves, the more inadequate, vacuous and utterly loathsome do they sound!

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