P: Tone curve broken...White point not adjustable

[defaultiz7nt6ye8bf9]

The tone curve is broken in Lightroom Classic 13.0. You can move the black point vertically and horiziontally at the same time, this however is no longer true for the white point. The white point only allows you to go in one direction at a time. So if you were hoping to bring down the highlights while also bringing up the brightness, it's no longer possible.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I am not able to replicate this problem. The White Point of the Curve (Point, R, G, or B) moves in both directions simultaneously. 

I recommend resetting your preference file to see if it clears the bad behavior. 

This procedure works for both Lightroom Classic and Lightroom Desktop.

If you are using Lightroom Desktop, it can change your local storage location. Please review this setting after resetting preferences. 

Reset Procedure:

1. Close Lightroom.

2. Hold down [Alt/Opt]+[Shift] while restarting Lightroom.

3. Overwrite the Preferences when prompted by the dialog.

4. Close Lightroom.

5. Restart Lightroom.

[defaultiz7nt6ye8bf9]

No change after resetting the preferences. I attached a screen recording to better illustrate the issue.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

That is different than what I am seeing. 

I wonder if you widen or narrow the width of the panel if it changes?

[defaultiz7nt6ye8bf9]

I've attached a video better showing the issue in Lightroom as well as it working properly in Photoshop. This is occuring in both Lightroom and Lightroom Classic 13.0.2 (this first appeared prior to this most recent update) on Mac OS Monterey 12.6.7. The tone curve works as it should in all the other adobe products (Photoshop, Premiere Pro, After Effects). I've reset prefrences, uninstalled, reinstalled, updated, and have confirmed this issue presist across multiple computers.

[richardplondon]

It seems that two points define a straight line (tilting as you move the points around).

Three or more points define a spline curve (which bends around as you move the points).

If you want to bring down some parts of the histogram while bringing up other parts of the histogram, a straight line logically and geometrically can't do this. It requires a midpoints curve defined by (at minimum) three points.

So that involves clicking in between the point defining white, and the point defining black, to place a new point that can then tonally "shape" things.

The illustrated behaviour from PS is in effect producing three points with a sharp corner between, and in the process is forcing a very distinct and sudden clip. A curve transition for this "bend" is much more pictorially benign IMO. It's important to remember that PS and LrC constitute very different kinds of postprocessing "space" with different design aims and practical usages. As I consider it, if PS and LrC did operate exactly the same way as each other, our available toolkiit would be poorer not richer for that. Perhaps LrC tone curve points did previously work as those in PS still do - I don't remember - but the current behaviour in LrC seems to be workable. Life is change!

[Conrad C]

Is the illustration below an accurate representation of the problem? Because if I look at this as a movement restriction (can’t move the white point along two axes simultaneously), I don’t see any evidence of that, because there are many times in the uploaded videos where both the white point input and output values change in the next frame as the white point is dragged.

But what I did notice is what happens to the point curve beyond the white point, when the white point Input and Output values are both lowered. Is that what you mean? If so, I do see that: What Lightroom Classic does with the point curve beyond the white point is not consistent with what Photoshop and Camera Raw do. In the Lightroom Classic example below, the green highlight is what other Adobe software do, but the red highlight is what Lightroom Classic does. Which is a little weird, because it seems like because Camera Raw and Lightroom Classic process the same way, at least those two should match, if not all three.

[defaultiz7nt6ye8bf9]

What you describe in your second paragraph is exactly what I am describing. The only differince I'm experincing is that if I open up a raw photo in photoshop (camera raw) I also experince the same issue you highlight in your Lightroom screenshot.

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

I can duplicate what @Conrad C shows above.  LrC used to work like in does in Camera Raw 16 but is now broken on the White Point.  Definately a bug.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I still cannot replicate it. 

Can you perhaps post a video showing what you are seeing?

[Bob Somrak]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography 

@defaultiz7nt6ye8bf9  posted two videos above.  The second one shows the behavior in LrC and Photoshop where it works in Photoshop.  It also works correctly in Camera Raw 16.  I have attached two videos.  One. in LrC13.02 and one in Camera 16.01

[richardplondon]

To be clear, I am also now seeing the red-highlighted sloping line extension shown in Conrad C's screenshot labelled "Lightroom Classic 13", and not the green-highlighted flat cutoff which is what I believe was seen until recently.. it is "broken" so far as an aim of working the same as before; but may be an intentional redesign of function. If it had always worked like this, and the curve had suddenly started flattening off abruptly instead, we might then have complained this had been "broken".

[Bob Somrak]

@richardplondon 

I think you missed the point.  This behavior is different from previous version of LrC and the compatible version of  newest Camera Raw so is a BUG in LrC.  

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I've logged a bug to investigate. Thanks for the videos. Those helped. 

[richardplondon]

Is a departure from the established norm, always a BUG? Could be the first showing of a functional redesign - OR could be a simple failure to remain the same. Curious minds wonder which!

[Bob Somrak]

@richardplondon 

I don't know how this change in behavior affects "existing" edits with the old behavior as I do not think I have ever done this on one of my photos except in testing.  If it does it would require a new process version.  Also, the fact that it only affects the white point and not the black point indicates it is a bug introduced when the histogram was changed to accomodate HDR.

[C.Cella]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography @Bob Somrak 

I believe LrC is simply constantly using ExtendedToneCurvePV2012 and the ExtenedRGB while ACR is not.

Please notice that as soon as we engage HDREditMode even ACR behaves like LrC

ACR in SDR

When in HDREditMode 

All signs point out at LrC using ExtendedToneCurvePV2012 at all times even in SDR 

I had observed this behavior time ago internally and was never given an answer.

One control points are created in the HDR region and we switch to SDR then ACR as well will keep using ExtendedToneCurvePV2012 and the ExtenedRGB to not break the curve just like LrC does.

.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Greetings all,

Updates for the Adobe Photography Products have been released.  The February 2024 updates contain an update for this issue. 

If you do not see the update in your Creative Cloud Application, you can refresh it by hitting [Ctrl/Cmd]+[Alt/Opt]+[ R ].

Note: It may take up to 24 hours for your update to be available in your Creative Cloud app.

Thank you for being so patient.