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Colour grade not exporting with Premiere Pro

Contributor ,
Feb 07, 2018 Feb 07, 2018

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Hi all, I may be doing something rather basic but here goes:

I am trying to export ANY file type from Premiere Pro CC - H264, ProRes, even still Jpeg images all have the same problem - some, not all (I cannot tell which) of the colour grades are not exporting so the Mp4 or .mov or whatever comes out is washed out - but not completely back to Slog.

It doesn't matter what the footage is - I tried reimporting MP4s and ProRes files and re-exporting them, I tried faking the grade but that just made a mess.

Any ideas? Doesn't make any difference if it's with LUTs or without - same issue

Machine is iMac Pro, Graphics card is Radeon Pro Vega 64 16GB, IOS is High Sierra, Adobe CC is up to date (brand new install)

Many thanks

Alex

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Explorer ,
Feb 11, 2018 Feb 11, 2018

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OK, this took me a while, but I have figured this out. The reason you weren't seeing the problem with your 2011 I-mac or your 2014 MacBook Pro is because those screens are not as wide gamut as your new i-mac pro. Here is the problem, since PP Pro doesn't allow you to make the program monitor adjust for your wide gamut screen, what happens is that the Rec 709 space, being a relatively narrow color space, (like sRGB), is inappropriately mapped to the wide gamut screen. As you can see in Photoshop, if you have an sRGB image file but you ASSIGN a wide gamut profile, such as Adobe RGB, you will see that the image becomes very saturated. This is essentially what is happening in PP Pro on your new i-mac. If you have a calibration device, you could calibrate your i-mac and make it emulate an sRGB gamut screen. Now the problem with that is that when you watch your videos on YouTube or vimeo, they will be even more washed out since you are emulating sRGB. IMHO, every video editor should be working on at least 2 screens, so the practical work -around while we wait for Adobe to come to their senses, is to have a second screen emulating sRGB and that is where you should put the program monitor panel. Keep your i-mac screen set to the i-mac profile, or better yet, profile is to something like D65, 120 cd/m2, and native gamma. That way, your web browsers will look good, & your play back with Quick Time will look good, and so will YouTube and vimeo.  VLC, will look over saturated on the i-mac screen since it has the same problem as PP Pro, namely being stuck in Rec 709, but it will look good on the second screen that is emulating sRGB. This may not be as belt and suspenders a solution as a dedicated broadcast monitor, but at least your clients won't question your abilities. I happen to be working with a Mac Pro, so I have 2 external screens, one is an NEC multi sync PA272W, which can be profiled to a wide range of working spaces including Adobe RGB, sRGB, Broadcast tv, and even Digital Cinema via its excellent Spectra-view software. I highly recommend this monitor if you are looking for a monitor to sit beside your wide gamut i-mac. My other monitor is an Eizio, which I have deprecated to run in sRGB emulation. I have profiled the Eizo with the Color Navigator software and an X-Rite Color Munki. It is easy to convert the Eizo back to a wide gamut profile when needed. I sometimes edit video on my 2013 MacBookPro, and I don't see such a problem because the MacBook Pro screen is not wide gamut, which hides the problem (even if the problem is still there)….  hope this helps...

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Contributor ,
Feb 12, 2018 Feb 12, 2018

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That's all really interesting maphoto, I will re read and properly digest. As an aside - I've just exported a 50 second timeline of GoPro footage - no effects, no grade, NTSC (don't ask) - export took 50 seconds, ie realtime - that's not very fast for an iMac Pro. Have you optimised yours for faster exports?

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Explorer ,
Feb 13, 2018 Feb 13, 2018

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I've done what I can do. GeekBench report pegs this machine at 23975. Not sure how that translates into exports- but it does seem to export fairly quickly...generally better than real time by a large margin...even with filters etc...I have an Nvidia Quadro 5000 in it...I would guess that your GPU's are faster than mine...

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Explorer ,
Apr 13, 2018 Apr 13, 2018

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Yup, totally runs along my findings too.

Q. With regards to using an external monitor to grade on, is my only option to buy a dedicated super expensive calibrated monitor for like 2k+? Or could I purchase and use a good quality ASUS LCD rec.709 screen (for example) to grade from? Something that a PC user may edit from...?

Cheers

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LEGEND ,
Apr 13, 2018 Apr 13, 2018

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I do my 'confidence monitor' or program monitor transmit on a Dell Ultrasharp model, 1920x1080, and calibrate weekly. I've colorist friends who are ... well ... mildly irritated to horrified at this. My editing "suite" is our old b-w darkroom from when we ran a pro portrait shooter's lab for 20+ years in our facility, so the room was painted a neutral gray all round with white sound-absorbing tile ceiling, and is naturally very light-controlled.

I follow the specs for suggested room brightness (really, moderate darkness!), and also use a MediaLight screen-attached LED dimmable 6K lighting of the area in view behind/around my monitor so my wall around the screen shows up at the correct percentage of white on my screen. It's a very controlled setup.

And, importantly, for a check, I've had bits of my work looked at on systems with the fully calibrated Flanders monitors ... and it's been within specs.

"Neil ... you just can't do that, for work ... and for Heaven's sake don't tell anyone you're doing it that way!"

I heard that ... again ... just a couple days ago at NAB. Point is, I don't do enough net profit on video post to justify a $3500 monitor and another $2500 at least of calibration gear. I can justify that kind of expense for the Tangent Elements panel sitting on my desk, because that really amps up my capability for production speed. That monitor/spectrophotometer setup ... not so much.

We've been in business over 40 years now. For all the years we ran that lab in the back of our studio building, rooms of gear & employees working away, I had to get production value from my facility and people equal to the labs with the newest automated gear, but out of the manual gear that was a bit outdated. And I did. From careful study and exact application of work patterns & practices. It's how we stayed profitable and therefore still in business.

For that production, we geared our whole setup to producing work that would look the best in the venue the users would see it ... on walls in their homes, all lit by tungsten bulbs. That's what portrait work was designed around. So you'd think I'd agree with the idea expressed above to set up your work patterns to best looks in YouTube via a browser on your system.

I don't. It's ... bad thinking. It's an idea that looks good, but doesn't end up so good.

Why not? Same idea, right?

Not at all. Back in those earlier days, nobody lit their living room, dining room, or bedroom with fluorescent ... only with tungsten light bulbs. You knew exactly what color their user-environment was going to be. The only question was how much light there would be, and well ... we picked what seemed to be a middle ground and went with it.

But web use is very different. Every monitor out there will have a different color space, response, and brightness/contrast/gamma combination than any other monitor, not even counting the viewing situation. Or the player used. Or the "carrier" if over a service like YouTube & Vimeo.

So there isn't any apparent standard, right?

Wrong. There is a 'standard' ... to look professional, your work needs to look like the professionally produced material carried over that service on the user's system. As then, in relative terms, your work looks Good.

Note, that is not at all to say that you will get your content to look like it does on your screen on any other screen in the world. Ain't happening. This is back to every flipping screen being different. None of them match your setup to begin with!

So give up that rather insane idea.

Produce as close as possible to the appropriate pro video standards, and let your content show as it will in the wild. In relative terms, for each user, it will look 'pro'. It will never look like it does in your suite.

And realize, this is exactly what pro network broadcasters go through every day. They know you can't fix gramma's green tv, nor can you out-guess the way users screw up the viewing situation.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Apr 16, 2018 Apr 16, 2018

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Hi Neil,

Really appreciate the detailed response, but still not sure if that was a "Yes" or "No" to my question. Apologies if this comes across as ignorant.

Hax

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Contributor ,
Apr 16, 2018 Apr 16, 2018

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If it helps: I had no issues with colour until I bought the iMac pro. All clients were happy with the exports from files graded on my old 2011 iMac - so, and I know it’s ridiculous having spent a lot of money on a new machine, I STILL use the iMac to colour grade by Using it as a second monitor for the iMac pro.

resolution is obviously nowhere near as good but at least the colour issue is, sort of, resolved.

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Explorer ,
Apr 16, 2018 Apr 16, 2018

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Yup, i'm on the same boat. My old iMac was stolen, but never had a problem grading on it. Now, the newer replacement is giving me the same issues as you are facing. I've been using a LUT to balance out the colour difference to help me grade, but it isn't 100% reliable.

Hax

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LEGEND ,
Apr 16, 2018 Apr 16, 2018

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The problem is your monitor on that new Mac isn't in the correct 'space' and PrPro and it are not agreeing well, to be somewhat simplified. Using a second monitor that ​is​ in the correct sRGB/Rec. 709 space and profiled for the Mercury Transmit out option would be your best option right now.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Feb 11, 2018 Feb 11, 2018

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I should add that allowing the PPPro program monitor to map correctly to the i-mac's wide gamut space would not have anything to do with the export being targeted for Rec 709. Those two things are independent of each other. The Rec 709 space is appropriate since it is the standard for broadcast and also because video is not currently able to embed and use color profiles. This is just like the early days of photo images on computers when there was only one RGB standard and it was assumed to be the profile for all devices...I think that was where standard RGB, or sRGB came from originally...

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Contributor ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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Hi all,

​Thank you to all who have commented on this issue, I am disappointed to have discovered it, not least since the investment of an iMac Pro has highlighted it.

The current solution is to use my old iMac as a target monitor and use that to check colours on (which is crazy, I know) but since Adobe Premiere Pro DOES NOT allow you to change the colour space of it's own Program Monitor window the only other way is to grade footage and then throw another adjustment layer on top so it looks correct on export.

​I am told that Adobe are working on a solution to this issue (just allow us to change the colour space of the Program monitor - problem solved) but this will happen faster if YOU get involved and request the feature.

​You can do this here:

Creative Cloud Wishform (not product specific)

​Once again, thanks for all your input.

​Alex

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LEGEND ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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As noted elsewhere, I've been putting in the feature request for color management options every release for five years now.

For operating in the real world we live in ... to get work out the door ... it's wise to set your monitors that will have program content on them to Rec709, and then calibrate them in that profile. Yea, even the colorists I know who've got some bloody expensive monitors with capabilities for nearly every space out there, say ... unless you're delivering P3 or (or whatever that space is) and such for festivals, or delivering full 1,000 NITS HDR, work in the space you deliver in.

Which is sRGB/Rec 709.

It just all works that way.

And ... hopefully, we'll have other options soon.

Neil

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Contributor ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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Yes but you can’t change the colour space on Adobe - that’s my point. You can change the monitor colour and actually watch Adobe snap back to whatever it thinks is correct. I should be able to set the colour space, how does adobe know what I’m editing for?

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Explorer ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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Dear Neil,

Thanks for all your input. I think the point Alex and I are making is that Adobe needs to make the program monitor conform to the color space of a wide gamut monitor. Neither Alex nor I are arguing that we want to deliver something different from Rec 709, (although it would actually be good if Adobe did allow export in other more modern color spaces as they come along). Since you are a photographer, think of it this way, you can view an Adobe RGB 1998 image file and also an sRGB image file correctly on a profiled monitor. Photoshop conforms the color space to the monitor. It has nothing to do with whether we want to export and deliver that file as an sRGB tagged file for web and an AdobeRGB1998 file for print (or CMYK). The problem is that Premiere Pro is ASSIGNING Rec 709 when it should be CONVERTING to the monitor color space. viewing and exporting are 2 different functions.

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Contributor ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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What he said

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LEGEND ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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Fully understand that, and as I've said, I've done the every-release feature request for more color/DR control management by the user. Options are always good, and ... well, users want options.

I know some pro colorists, one of whom has one of the first shops setup on the east coast to do full Dolby Vision HDR. He works mainly in Resolve, with all it's color management capabilities. He's got several thousands dollars of calibration gear alone, all his monitors are setup with external LUT boxes for calibration and they're the big Flanders, Eizo, and Sony type rigs. Can probably handle wider color/DR than anyone else I know ... accurately.

He told me he grades with his boxes all setting his monitors to the space he's planning on delivering for. So ... for most work, his monitors are set to sRGB/Rec709, and normally gamma 2.4.

Could he just use Resolve to emulate the Rec709 profile? Sure. Could he use the LUT boxes to "make" a monitor sRGB? Sure. Does he? Um ... no. A few pixels off, his deliverable gets rejected. He wants to be sure he never has that happen, total professional fail & embarrassment. So when he's working, he uses that gear of his to set things to the exact space he needs. And works in that space. Takes only a few moments.

I know that some other colorists always rely on Resolve to 'fix' things for them. The colorists I know roll their eyes at that, but ... that's professional discretion & different working practices. Everyone does it a bit differently. Humans being ... human.

I'd love for all of us to have wider options. At this point, I wouldn't advise working like that, but ... whatever floats your boat & gets your work out in a way that it gets accepted, go for it. Including if you need to use Resolve, for that app's marvelous color management capabilities.

Because yea ... wider spaces/DR ​are​ coming.

Neil

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Explorer ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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We all have different needs and different goals and different budgets. That's what Adobe needs to help us out with. The disconnect here is that Apple is marketing a so called "Professional" i-mac, & they have created a NLE namely Final Cut Pro that can run on that machine and display accurate color as you are working. It's obviously not going to be what your pro colorist friend would use and that's also understood. It's also true that sometimes "The perfect is the enemy of the good", and many of us live in the world of "good enough" mainly because we are not working with Hollywood budgets. Adobe could definitely make our lives easier without taking anything away from the Pro colorists.

For example, I have been able to replicate CMYK proofs very, very close to a printer's proofer via color profiles, first from the CMYK space to the monitor so I can see it accurately, and then to an inkjet printer, (also using an accurate profile) that emulates the printer's CMYK color space. None of this costs nearly as much as the printer's set up, but it can get the job done shockingly well.

I believe that is where Adobe needs to take us with Premiere. If they don't, then folks are going to migrate to some other solution. Many have done so already...

It can't be that hard. They are the creators of Photoshop after all and I've spoken with folks over there who understand color management. I also know that lots of Adobe folks are partial to Macs, so it's a head scratcher for me as to why they don't get this...

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Contributor ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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The functionality is already there, it just needs to be switched on...or off. You can physically see the Adobe colour space change when you click on the iMac colour space, then it changes back - just don't do that.

If the software can ignore the colour space then it can...er...Unignore it too. Right click, menu, assign colour space to Program Viewer. Done.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 19, 2018 Feb 19, 2018

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Great job on the CMYK stuff, btw. Yea, it's always useful to know the workarounds that just get stuff out.

I don't have a full Flanders quality monitor, but ... with the calibration I've got, I've checked my outputs ... and was told it was "compliant" ... so for my (relatively) itty-bitty needs, I'm doing fine. Were I going to start doing more b-cast work, well ... at that point, you better believe my system would see some immediate changes. This works pretty good, I know my limitations and that of my gear, and how to ensure that I will stay within requirements. And ... cost-justification is something most of us doing this stuff for a living understand.

I don't know how many times we shot wedding stills, and had some amateur show up with 3 times the gear and 20 times the cost of the gear. Years ago, we had our two Mamiya RB67 Pro-S setups, an uncle showed up with like 6 Haliburton aluminum cases of every body/lens that Hasselblad made. Many thousands of dollars of gear ... but as he was a brain surgeon, not a working camera pro, he could afford it.

The setups that some of my colorist friends have leave me green with ... quasi-envy. But then, they do 1-3 jobs a day for national b-cast, they HAVE to produce every time to spec. Compared to a lot of the guys I know around here, well ... my system's a lot more 'qualified'. It's all relative.

I've talked with the staffers at NAB (this will be my sixth) and the last couple Adobe MAX conferences. I think we're getting closer to getting more control, as they're very aware that wider DR particularly is coming. Note they have added some trifling HDR tools in PrPro ... I think they're testing things. When we get them released to us user-types, who knows?

Prodding them as much as possible is good, though. File those reports!

(And in the meantime, just setup to get the work out.)

Neil

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New Here ,
Mar 09, 2018 Mar 09, 2018

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jsyboy75, I'm just picking up on this thread after trying to get my head around all of this stuff.

I am like you, recently upgraded from a 2011 iMac 27 inch to the iMac Pro and I've been noticing some really weird colors which has me seriously questioning my work and what i deliver to clients. I have been creating videos for about 8 years and I've always worked in Premiere and After Effects. Mostly corporate videos and events etc. shot on 5D's.

Within the first few days of having the iMac Pro I realized the colour differences and began reading - panicking if I'd just spent my life savings on a computer that performs less reliably that my old 2011 iMac! I quickly learnt that Quicktime displays colors wrong unless you've specifically set you displays colour profile to ITU-R BT.709-5. VLC seems to do the best job regardless of which profile you're on. So that is fine, I'll work in Premiere/AE and I'll review my exports in VLC and it'll look good. I will just keep the default color profile named 'iMac' and I will never use Quicktime again.

Now the problem comes in, as you said - clients need to see what we're seeing on their side. Neil has a valid point that you can't control what the client is seeing because you don't know how they're watching it. But in my case, I share all my videos to clients for approval via Vimeo so ignoring that there is a variance across different browsers, what we really need is a LUT that can be added at the time of export which can compensate for whatever Vimeo is doing. The ultimate goal is for the Premiere window on my side to match the Vimeo window on the clients side. Has anyone found a solution to that - or perhaps a better workflow?

Last week i sent a file across to a client for approval and they screenshot various frames of the video querying me if I'd done colour correction. Needless to say the screenshots looked very different on his side to how it looked on mine - so I'd bet money he was watching it in Quicktime on his side.

On a side note, I exported an animation from AE in both a JPG sequence and an mp4. The colors of the video vary from player to player but the jpgs match the colour of the AE window. The minute i combine the JPG's into an image sequence and export as a video, right back to the washed out colour problem again with different results across different players. From what I've seen and read - I believe this is a colour profile problem that is global across all OS's, hardware and browsers. No-one is conforming to a specific profile and it is becoming more and more noticeable as display hardware improves.

franciscrossman said it right in his post and it made me feel a lot better when I read it ...

"It's not a new problem, and it's small enough that it has gone largely unnoticed for the vast majority of people.  But video pros have been battling hardcore with this problem for something like 10 years - no joke.  It's quite possible that your eye is just now picking up on it.  I remember that moment for myself - crazy-making!"

-

I don't need precise colour correction but as a video professional I do not feel very professional when I don't even have a workable workflow to guide clients through. It's heartbreaking to think that so much work goes into a project and if it is not displayed properly it could reflect badly on me.

If only Adobe could have a drop down menu above the source window, or an option at the time of creating the sequence, that gives the user a view of how the footage would look in: Youtube, Vimeo, Facebook etc. that would be very helpful.

At this point I need to get my head around this and master it. If I must I'll change software or even hardware. jsyboy75 - are you still scratching your head or have you found a workable solution?

Thanks,

Sean.

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Contributor ,
Mar 09, 2018 Mar 09, 2018

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Hi Sean,

My solution was to use my old iMac, so thanks, Adobe.

mid 2011 iMacs are thunderbolt equipped - buy a USB-C (thunderbolt3) to Thunderbolt adapter, connect your shiny new paperweight to your old iMac, hit Apple 2 on the old iMac and grade with that...

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New Here ,
Mar 09, 2018 Mar 09, 2018

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Oh no 😞

I have already cleaned and sold my old 2011 iMac so that isn't even an option.

So if you do it that way, does your exported H.264 file look the same on your desktop versus what you're seeing on Vimeo? Are you sure you're not just hiding the problem by seeing it on the old iMac?

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Contributor ,
Mar 09, 2018 Mar 09, 2018

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That depends on your point of view. I had no complaints from clients until I used the new machine then I almost failed to deliver a film on time to my biggest client and in the end had to fudge an adjustment later to deliver what I guessed would look ‘right’ to them.

I could care less about the quicktime Issue or Adobe showing what it thinks I should see - Adobe doesn’t let you change the display settings of the program monitor so you can’t do anything with just one screen.

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New Here ,
Mar 10, 2018 Mar 10, 2018

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I feel your frustration

I've read similar problems from Resolve users who export files which are not consistent from their desktop to Youtube/Vimeo. So the real problem seems to start with all these different platforms (youtube, vimeo, safari, chrome etc.) that don't use one constant video colour profile. Well, Premiere is trying to conform but everyone else isn't.

Out of curiosity, lets say you export a H.264 file from your iMac Pro and then view it in VLC. The colors match between premiere window and the VLC window - right? How about if you move that same file over to the old iMac and watch it in VLC on there - does it look the same? My point - is VLC consistent across the old iMac and the iMac Pro?

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Contributor ,
Mar 10, 2018 Mar 10, 2018

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I never use VLC for anything, don’t know anyone that does and I’m not about to start now.

sounds like a sensible test though.

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