LOCKED: GPU color range 16-235 vs. 0-255 & Video Limiter to fix washed out export.

Report · Mar 28, 2021

Hello, I'm having that same color problem it seems everybody in the Adobe world is having, the export is a little bright and washed out. (exporting to bluray for hdtv, H.264) Video looks fine in timeline, washed out after exporting to disc. I'm on a PC, my GPU at 16-235 color range (Nvidia)

I've sifted thru dozens of blogs and videos. And also saw the one here about using the QT Gamma Compensation.cube LUT.

I'm not using Color Management, because my computer monitor is calibrated rec709 2.4 gamma (as per Neil's advice in his video)

Neil said to set my GPU color range to 16-235 for rec709 broadcast, but I've read other blogs stating Premiere uses 0-255.... and Ann likes 0-255 while using a video limiter.

Which do you think is best:

A) GPU 0-255 and use Video Limiter

B) GPU 0-255 , Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

C) GPU 16-235 and Video Limiter

D) GPU 16-235, Video Limiter and LUT: QT Gamma Compensation.cube

E) Or your own configuration _______________________________________.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

Letty

Report · Mar 30, 2021

Gonna get the x-rite pro, set gpu to 0-255 and recalibrate. My last chance for hope. All the exports from PPro were brighter. (disc project only, not worried about internet players) H.264 & bluray, mpg4, etc... all burned to disc and all looked the same brightness.... but, when I reimported the videos back into PPro, they looked fine, which tells me this might be a gpu color range issue. (currently my gpu is at 16-235)

note: I even calibrated the hdtv to make sure the levels were cool, which they are.

The exports to disc had the gamma cranked up just a bit, making things look brighter than on the timeline.

I'll be back.

Report · Apr 02, 2021

I'm just going to keep experimenting until something works. Maybe I'll just manually lower the gamma in the final export to disc or just pop up the black levels,etc.... I guess there is no concrete solution to any of this. Too many configurations, too many opinions and theories. I blame the makers of Adobe for all of this mess. After 20 years they can't get it right and we are forced to experiment, trial and error, blog research, Q&A, so much effort and such a waste of time because it all goes nowhere. There isn't one way to do anything. It's too complex. As for me, back to the drawing board of trial and error.

Good luck to all those people in my shoes, and I'm assuming it's everybody reading this.

Thanks again Adobe for letting all of us try to figure out your expensive program that has no real solutions for any type of real color management, what so ever.

Report · Apr 03, 2021

I don't have the same problem as you. What software are you using to create the blu-ray disc? As I stated you need to invest in 3rd party hardware if you are going to be creating blu-ray disks that will be seen on TVs as opposed to computer screens. The same could be said for Avid and Edius.

Report · Apr 03, 2021

So you are saying in order to get great results color grading for bluray disk, I have to use an old CRT tv monitor?

I don't get it. All the big studio editors edit film on high tech flat screen monitors, and they make great bluray discs.

Please advise,

Thanks,

Letty

Report · Apr 03, 2021

You are very very confused. You need to comprehend what is being done. No one is saying you need an old CRT monitor. You need to learn to pay attention and comprehend what is being said and done. Did you some how miss the fact that you can output to an HDTV using the Intensity Shuttle? The 4K Mini Studio (link below) supports NTSC and PAL (CRT TV/Monitors). You know what it also supports? It also supports ATSC, ATSC 3.0 and Digital Cinema (DCI).

You would only use an older CRT TV to capture old 3/4" tapes or Betcam tapes because it is much better to see SD video on the SD TV as opposed to the computer screen or an HDTV. Do you now understand when to use an HDTV VS an old school NTSC monitor or are you still confused?

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudio/techspecs/W-DLUS-11

Report · Apr 04, 2021

Thank you for the demeaning reply. No, I don't understand much, that's why I come here to learn new things, not get reprimanded. The reason I didn't understand your ideas is because your videos are long winded and to be honest, very creepy. I couldn't follow what you were trying to say in the videos because of all your non sequitur rambling and when the footage of Roxy Music came on, I realized I was watching a video made in the 80's and it wouldn't relevent today. That's my impression. Of course, your answer is "buy this machine and use your tv as a monitor." Well, I don't have $1000 laying around and I thought PPro and AE would be able to make a disc with the equipment I already have.

I'm surprised you are an "Adobe Pro" and you keep pushing me to buy another component. PPro and AE should be able to make the disc without more equipment, but it seems that isn't the case. I will continue the trial and error process and find a way to get my timeline to have a reasonable match to the hdtv without buying more techno boxes, cables and software.

Report · Apr 04, 2021

Please keep in mind, the BDMV format simply encapsulates your videos into bluray format. they don't make a standard for you in colorspace rec. 709 16-235 BT1886. Either your bluray authoring software will need to do this or you need to export with a lut/grade/effect manually to turn your 2.2 gamma video into 2.4(Premiere only temporararily displays 2.4 gamma translation in icc mode. When you export back out, it's still 2.2). That is probably why you are seeing a washed out image. The only exception to this is the wraptor DCP encoder as it expects a 2.2 gamma and burns in a 2.6 gamma and changes the colorspace/whitepoint.

Report · Apr 04, 2021

Thank you Chris for that info, I will study it. I think I will use a LUT to change the gamma when exporting to disc. Thanks very much for the advice.

Report · Apr 04, 2021

Ooooh!!! yes, that makes sense!! My video footage to begin with IS 2.2 gamma. And when it goes to disc, it's bright. I think that is sinking in now. So I should use a LUT to change the gamma. THANK YOU!!! Learn something new here every day.

Report · Apr 04, 2021

OK Chris, yeah, I'm almost there. So you make sense, the footage is 2.2 gamma, and I'm seeing it on a monitor that is 2.4... but that doesn't change the footage, so when I export it, it's still 2.2 and when it's played on hdtv, that tv is 2.4 so it increases the gamma brightness so my footage is washed out. I hope I got that?

So how do I color grade this mess? I can add a LUT in the export, (I'm using Adobe Media Encoder) to make an adjustment, but if you could please confirm these settings:

1) NVidia GPU color range 0-255 or 16-235 ?

2) Monitor Calibration is OK at rec709 2.4 gamma or it should be _____________ ?

3) Usa Gamma Correction in PPro timeline? The Gamma Correction is at 10 when I click on it.

increase or decrease the gamma from original 2.2 to __________ ?

(how many increments to I add or subtract to get the final goal?)

I couldn't find a gamma setting in Lumetri, to make my own LUT.

4) Your QT LUT for gamma shift in quicktime doesn't apply to me in this case?

I think those questions cover my world.

Thanks so much for your reply!

Best,

Letty

oh ONE more thing (sorry).... you are so right about the gamma being the problem. When I was in PPro, I changed the Gamma using gamma correction, from 10 to 8, and the "8" is exactly what I see on my hdtv screen!!

If that helps.

Report · Apr 05, 2021

Keep the monitor at 16-235 period. I don't know of any calibration specialist what would give other advice ... that is the standard for Rec.709 media.

What are you using to do the authoring for the BluRay disc? I think that's something that's been missing from this discussion, as you can't take an export from Premiere and make a BluRay ... it has to go through an authoring application.

Neil

Report · Apr 05, 2021

Neil.

I asked what he was using to create the Blu-ray disc but he wanted to talk about CRT monitors instead of answering my question. That being said Adobe needs a replacment for Encore so we can all be on the same page. There is no excuse considrering DVD/Blu-ray gets mentioned all the time in these forums. DVD and Blu-ray are not going away any time soon and they are mentioned in the FCPX forums, Avid Forums and Edius forums.

Report · Apr 06, 2021

Hi Neil, I'm using TMPGEnc Authoring Works 6. Using all 'stock' settings. I couldn't find anything in the settings about gamma.

So it's going from a gamma setting of 10 in PPro, to an 8 when exported out. (according to the gamma correction effect in PPro) About a 20% shift. When I set the gamma to a setting of 8 in ppro effect, it looks exactly the same as what I'm getting on the disc. Washed out and brighter.

Report · Apr 06, 2021

I contacted Adobe and jumped thru all the hoops and all they said was "it's not PPro, it's your software to burn the disc." No tech reasons, just a brush off. Wouldn't say why, or how to fix, just "we don't support 3rd party software.

So back to AW6, couldn't find anything in their blogs about gamma shift, nor anything on the net. I checked all the preferences and the only thing I didn't have checked was the use of CUDA. I checked it, but of course, no change. Gamma still not right.

Brushed off from Adobe and back at ground zero on a fix.

I combed the internet about gamma shifts when exporting to disc, and NOBODY seems to be making bluray discs any more. . It's all about "QT or VLC or Vimeo" etc.... all internet players.

Where am I going to get help on this ? Isn't there anybody in these forums that still make bluray discs and have had this similar problem?

I can't even find a LUT for this. I feel I shouldn't need a LUT because PPRo is made to make videos and to export to disc properly. I'm willing to try a LUT, but can't find one because it seems nobody has this problem in the whole wide world except for me. Silly, yes, but that seems to be the case.

And even worse is, if there is a fix, darking it up with a LUT.... I'll have a bluray that looks good on hdtv, but will be very dark when played on a computer? I can't win this.

Report · Apr 06, 2021

Please dropbox me a short sample export file with both bars/tones and a regular clip with tonal values both down below 5IRE and up to about 90IRE and I'll check it out on my system.

If that file checks out correctly, then it would be the authoring process. If not, we'll recheck settings.

Neil

Report · Apr 06, 2021

If done correctly TAW6 does not re-encode BD files for BD disk.

My BD disk look the same on computer and 4Ktv.

Report · Apr 05, 2021

1) NVidia GPU color range 0-255 or 16-235 ?
- The legal/full range excel spreadsheet lists all the codecs that Premiere tries to outsmart and pre-determine the range so that's why this part gives so much confusion. Just remember that .icc doesn't change your render, it just displays a temp calibration.

2) Monitor Calibration is OK at rec709 2.4 gamma
yes, D65 100 nit ( i won't get into perceptual nits here) but do you do need to be in a slightly dark room at this low of nits.

3) Usa Gamma Correction in PPro timeline? The Gamma Correction is at 10 when I click on it.
- The gamma correction is not fully linear so it won't perfectly match up although it will get pretty close. This is because rec 709 gamma isn't fully linear. It has a little toe.

I couldn't find a gamma setting in Lumetri, to make my own LUT.
- I wouldn't make a lut in lumetri as i think it only holds 16 cube luts. I would only use 64 cube quality. I'd try to find a 2.2 to 2.4 64 cube lut and add it to the adobe media encoder dropdown.
Making a perfect parametric conversion by hand wouldn't be perfect. I'd build this in lattice or some other lut converter instead.

4) Your QT LUT for gamma shift in quicktime doesn't apply to me in this case?
no. quicktime player doesn't factor into this directly. I'd use mpc-hc for video playback on the pc.

oh ONE more thing (sorry).... you are so right about the gamma being the problem. When I was in PPro, I changed the Gamma using gamma correction, from 10 to 8, and the "8" is exactly what I see on my hdtv screen!!
- Well, since it matches exactly, you have confirmed your gamma problem.

Report · Apr 06, 2021

Hi Chris, you said: I'd try to find a 2.2 to 2.4 64 cube lut and add it to the adobe media encoder dropdown.

But going from 2.2 to 2.4 isn't that much of a pop.

My export has a much wider visual gap, I just don't know the number.

In the Gamma Correction tool in PPro, It goes from a default 10, then I change it to 8 and that's what my hdtv export looks like About a 20% difference in the gamma.

I still don't get how the gamma can be so way off. If as you say the clip is 2.2 gamma, and it's being exported as 2.2 and watched on a 2.4 hdtv, it isn't that far off from each other... only .2 difference. But in PPro it's more like 20% difference.

I'll try what you said, and find a lut to change my 2.2 to a 2.4

Thanks!

Letty

Report · Apr 04, 2021

You are very very confused again as usual. I first suggested you buy a $200.00 product but you thought it was cheesy. I then showed you a highend product for $1,000.00 that can still make use of old 3/4" tapes and CRT monitors because in another post you were mocking my use of a CRT monitor. Do you remember doing that? You confused video capturing with video editing. Once again if anyone had to get old footage of OJ Simpson from thirty to forty 3/4" tapes from the 1980s they would make use of a CRT monitor. They would not look at a tiny image on the computer screen or watch it on an HDTV. Have you heard of a 3/4" tape? I my video I was demonstrating how to upscale SD/VHS for Blu-ray with acccurate color but you should be smart enough to know the process will work with HD video clips from a Panasonic P2 camera, DSLR camera or even 4K Red One Camera with R3D files. Does it make sense now? Your TV does not use the same color space as a computer monitor. Interlaced video does not look good on a computer monitor. That is why 3rd party product are available. You should be able to get your computer monitor close to a TV but all computer monitors are different. You could edit on an iMac or Windows PC using LG monitors. They will not look the exact same. Do you see my point? That being said if you edit using an iMac or a Windows PC with LG monitors but you monitor you video on your TV using 3rd party hardware from BM, Matrox or AJA it will look the same. Do you see my point? You need to monitor your editing on your TV not your computer screen if the final output is for Blu-ray.

I was asked to be an Adobe Community Professional because someone at Adobe had seen my videos and though they were good. They thought with my background I could help out people in these forums. The bottom line is the information I gave you is 100% correct. I used to work for the Cable Commission with two Avid Media Composers and a DPS Velocity System. We had well over a millon dollars worth of cameara equipment inlcluding a Camplex System, CCU, switcher, Betacam decks, 3/4" decks DVCAM etc. That being said how much content have you created that has been broadcasted? How many times have you had to transfer 3/4" tapes to the PC? Have you ever worked with 3/4 inch tapes? If so what method did you use?

The video below might be easier for you to follow along with. Keep in mind your computer monitor will not let you see an overscan and underscan of the video composition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_gOE67i-MI

Report · Apr 04, 2021

You are very very confused again as usual.

By @Andy 1968

Again, your opening statment is an insult. You have no people skills. I suggest taking a step back and ask yourself why you are writing in this forum to begin with. Insulting people you don't even know just makes them want to ignore your posts and your creepy poorly made tutorials.

Report · Apr 05, 2021

Dear Letty.

In case you don't realize it you can be a condesending and insulting with a bit of mockery in your post. For the record you did confuse video capturing with video editng multiple times. There is nothing wrong with stating your are confusing the two. Do you see my point? I admit there is chance you were playing dumb which I think you were. I had asked you what you are using to create the Blu-ray discs since Encore is defunct but you gave me no answer. Instead you wanted to ramble on about CRT monitors. Your obessions with CRT monitors is super creepy and super annoying considering no one told you to use a CRT monitor. Are you playing dumb? Are your confused? Are you trying to be a smart ass? In fact you made another post about CRT monitors (link below).

You could respond by saying "Andy I now see why some people might need old school NTSC support. I admit I was confusing video capture with video editing but now I understand". As you can see I will not hesitate to call a spade a spade. Having said that Adobe should give us a replacement for Encore so we can all be on the same page when creating DVDs and Blu-ray disks.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro/possible-to-calibrate-ppro-color-management-to-match-crt...

Report · Apr 06, 2021

Andy 1968 Stop writing me. I don't like your lecturing or condescending statements. You don't act like an Adobe professional.

Report · Apr 06, 2021

Letty,

You made some snide and insulting remarks and I responded accordingly. What comes around goes around goes around.