Media Encoder not respect color grading and add a black tone

[saispaslequelmettre]

Hello

I have some problems with Media Encoder. When I export a file, whatever the file format, mp4 or mov. media encoder doesn't respect the color grading, but add a black tone on the images. If I want to export directly from PP, there's no problem. 

Another thing, please, why the color grading is not the same between AE and PP, on the latest version of the software ? 

Equipment is MCB Pro, M1 Max, 64Go, Monterey 12.2.1, PP and Media Encoder 22.4

I thank you for your help

[R Neil Haugen]

Differences between Ae and Pr are nearly always one of two things:

• Not setting Ae color management to match Pr: Rec.709/gamma 2.4
• Haven't unchecked "composite in linear color"

So for the Ae/Pr troubles try the two above things.

For the Me issue, I'm not sure what is happening, you might add a screen-grab drag/dropped onto the text reply box so we can see what you mean. It might be that in the Me preferences, unchecking 'import sequences natively' could help.

Neil

[saispaslequelmettre]

Hi Neil

Thanks for your answer. Here are two screenshot, A is the correct color grading, which I have when I export directly. B is from ME.  I've tried cheking and unchecking Import sequences natively, but it doesn't change anything. 

On PP, the color grading is more or less the same way, using lumetri, adding sometimes a lut (it's the same result whatever the lut used), nothing else. 

I've also added a screenwhot of the preference on ME. 

I thank you for your help.... 

Best

Franck 

[R Neil Haugen]

I wonder if this is some M1 problem? I can't repro here.

@Warren Heaton might have an idea or two ... help please!

Neil

[saispaslequelmettre]

Hi Neil

I thank you. I've to add that this problem doesn't appear on all the footage. On the same video, the color grading is correct, on another, it's not. But, the color grading is the same all over the footage....  By the way, I may not have this problem, edit a version, change the edit the day after and then, suddenly, ME add this black tone, even if I don't modifiy the color grading. It looks likge it's erratic. But mostly, I can't use ME for rendering anymore. It may be M1, but this problem has started with the latest version of PP.  

I do thank you for your help.... 

Best

Franck 

[R Neil Haugen]

Are some clips HLG or in a log format perhaps?

Neil

[saispaslequelmettre]

Hi, yes, all the footage are in a log format, depending of the camera used, it may canon, fuji or red, accordintg to the project. This one is a canon log. Does it help ? 

Now that you ask the question, I have another project right one, footages are in a log format but Fuji, it works perfectly well. 

I thank you 

best

Franck  

[R Neil Haugen]

They completely rebuilt the color system, including all 'importing' of media, defaults, and internal processes with the Pr2022 version. And it's not a completed job, they're still rolling out bits & pieces. Like ... they just introduced sequence-set tonemapping for HLR/PQ clips to SDR in the public beta.

Something not well understood by most editors: some SDR media is log-encoded, but all HDR media is log-encoded. And with the changes, Pr2022 has tended with most log media to 'default' to seeing that as HLG ... hybrid log/gamma, one of the two HDR formats Pr works with.

But not all log media. And some log media in certain formats from some makers is now "Color Managed", meaning that (in Adobe-speak) the program 'sees' this as a log-encoded clip with certain options given by the devs to that type of media from that maker. And it's been more than a bit of a morass.

For instance, at first, ALL Sony log was treated as HDR/HLG, without any ability to change it. The Override options were grayed out. Then ... some Sony log formats allowed Override options. But some still didn't, notably ... S-log3.cine, one of the more popular and 'serious camera' Sony logs.

But finally, they have I think all Sony logs properly "color managed" in Adobe-speak, again meaning the app uses appropriate defaults and allows the user to make changes if wanted.

However ... some Canon, some Fuji & other log media are still not "color managed". And they're all over the place. I think most now allow Overrides, but some clearly don't. From the same camera manufacturer ... sigh.

And proxies were NOT CM'd according to user choice, all proxies from log-encoded media have been made as HLG period. Blown out on any SDR timeline.

Well now ... some media can have proxies made that 'take' the CM of the clip.

And where do you get a list of what's what today?

Good question. There ain't one.

So ... check the clip properties for the clips that are coming out odd. Go to the Project panel bin, right-click one or more of them, Modify/Interpret Footage, set the Override to Rec.709 if you have the option in the CM controls at the bottom of that hidden dialog panel.

Neil

[saispaslequelmettre]

Hi Neil

I thank you for all those informations, I was not aware about that. Anyway, I can't control how color is managed direcly from properties of the footage. But, the problem is this one : I used on PP the lut Canon C-log 3 to REC 709. It works perfectly well in PP, but, it's not recognized by ME. If I change the lut in PP, the render in ME works well. Which is weird, the lut is on the file Adobe Common>LUTs>Technical, it's the right way to add a lut, isn't it ? I thank you. Have a great day

best

Franck 

[greggyp89]

Same thing happens for me in Clog 3. If I use the creative tab to add the canon log 3 to 709 lut it renders in ME Noramlly. However, If i add the Clog3 to 709 Lut in the Input tab, ME Gives me a yellow color cast. I like using the input tab for my conversion lut and then using creative for Creative! It renders fine in Premiere so Its a Media Encoder Issue. Pretty sad that this has been happening for 3 months and no fix yet.

[R Neil Haugen]

Greg ...

Interesting it is behaving different in different tabs, which would be annoying.

I've never had that happen in many years of testing, use, and teaching. And I can't think why it would. Huh.

Personally, for my own work, I completely avoid applying LUTs in the Basic tab. But then, I was taught this by colorists.

From Alexa Van Hurkman (who wrote several of "the books") on down, it is noted that by their very form, LUTs can and will be destructive with any and all clips varying slightly from those the LUT was designed to be used with.

So the "proper" application has typically been to apply where you have the ability to "trim" the clip into the LUT. Meaning you apply the LUT, then in operations processed before the LUT, you adjust exposure and saturation for best effective final image.

Thus avoiding crushed or clipped pixels. 

I do realize some LUTs are more capable of performing without potentially damaging the image than others, and are used in cases where you can't trim.

I do test any first however, no matter the source. Some of the ones I've generated in LutCalc have tested very good for space and DR transform work, with very few problems.

[neil wilkes]

I also really don't like the latest overhaul - it's a shambolic mess.

[saispaslequelmettre]

as you said !!! 😉 Today, subtitles doesn't want to work anymore .... It was ok yesterday. It's not today. Anyway, I do thank you Neil, you were very helpful to me, great support, thanks. 

I wish you a great day

best

Franck 

[R Neil Haugen]

If you're applying that LUT via the Basic tab, yea, the {Program/Package files} Adobe/Common/LUTs/Technical should work for Pr, Ae, and Me. "Should" ...

Though I don't recommend using the Basic tab's LUT input, that's applied in the wrong place for processing order. Any LUT can clip/crush or under/over-saturate a specific clip, and after the LUT you cannot correct that.

So for all LUTs, you really need to apply the LUT in the visual chain and be able to check the scopes, but also be able to modify the clip's exposure/contrast/whites/blacks/saturation to make it properly fit what that LUT "expects".

So ... I always use the Creative tab to apply normalization or color transform LUTs, then use the Basic tab controls to trim the clip into/through the LUT.

And yea, weird about the subtitles too ...

Neil

[saispaslequelmettre]

hi Neil

Great to know that. I'll change my process. Maybe it will fix the problem with ME 😉 

I thank you for all these advises. 

Have a great day Neil

Best

Franck