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Fabio22557433ezjg
Known Participant
September 8, 2023
Question

Punched-in footage on 2160p timeline exports blurry to 1080p

  • September 8, 2023
  • 11 replies
  • 2426 views
  • Issue - When on a 3840x2160 timeline and exporting to a 1920x1080, punched-in footage loses resolution. Resolution is fine while working in Premiere.
  • Adobe Premiere Pro version number: 23.6.0 (Build 65)
  • Operating system - Mac OS Ventura 13.5.2
  • System Info: CPU, GPU, RAM, HD:

    • CPU M1 Max

    • GPU M1 Max

    • RAM 32 GB

    • Internal SSD

  • Video format: Using A7s II 3840x2160 mp4 footage, but tested also with any 4K footage.
  • Steps to reproduce:
    • Open a brand new project
    • Import a 3840x2160 clip
    • Drop it onto the "New Composition" button, a new clip with the same footage settings is created
    • Zoom clip into composition to 200%: basically a 1920x1080 crop remains framed, in the preview window it is still reasonably sharp
    • Check that "use maximum render quality" is checked everywhere, both on the comp setting and in render.
    • Try to export the clip (h264 or ProRes): if exporting to 1920x1080, the export preview gets instantly blurrier, while selecting 3840x2160 comes back sharp.
  • Expected result - I would expect to at least retain all my 1920x1080 pixels with negligible sharpness loss due to upscaling in 2160 composition and downscaling to 1080 for export. See attached screenshot on how the loss is NOT negligible.
  • Actual result -  Attached two screenshot of 2160 and 1080 export. Look at the YAMAHA text or any diagonal line to see the stark difference. Remember that the framed part in the composition is still a 1080 crop, so the added detail in the 2160 export doesn't come from more pixels in the source comp.
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11 replies

R
R Tarun
Participating Frequently
September 8, 2023

Moving to Discussions

F
Fabio22557433ezjgAuthor
Known Participant
September 8, 2023

I'm sure it's a "problematic" workflow and only created to show that there may be a problem in the way Premiere handles exports. I would never go into punching clips 200% for no good reason, but at the same time SOME punch-in can sometimes happen and I'd just want to know why should I lose detail on a lower resolution export while the detail IS THERE on preview and gets lost during exporting.

 

As per guidelines I compiled a complete list of steps to reproduce the issue and even attached a project that highlights a glaring issue in difference of quality between preview and export, and still all I got was some "why are you punching in" or "if you zoom in you're gonna lose detail" like I'm some kind of kid playing with video editing for the first time.

 

1080p comp with 100% 2160p inside > 2160p timeline > export as 1080p: virtually no change in quality

2160p clip scaled 200% > 2160p timeline > export as 1080p: completely wrecked

Both methods achieve basically the same thing. Both clips look IDENTICAL side by side on a timeline in preview.  Only one of those is destroyed when exported.

 

Could someone akcnowledge that I should at least getting what I see in preview? And if two clips are identical in preview, they shouldn't be completely different during export? Has anyone tried the provided project file?

    Warren Heaton
    Community Expert
    Warren HeatonCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    September 8, 2023

    I'm not able to duplicate the issue.

    • 16-inch, 2021 MacBook Pro
    • Apple M1 Max
    • 32GB RAM/1TB Flash storage
    • macOS Ventura 13.4.1 (c) (22F770820d)

     

    To get a side-by-side comparison, I used the sample "Export_Test.prproj" to butterly the the 2160p clip (C0075.MP4) scaled to 200% on the left with the 1080p nested Comp on the right that uses Scale to Frame Size.  The picture looks the same exported at ProRes 422 LT and H264 Match Source - High Bit Rate.  The still image of frame 00.00.00.15 is saved from the ProRes 422 LT export.






    Keeping best practicaes in mind, I also scaled the 2160p sample clip (C0075.MP4) back down to 100%, replaced with an After Effects Composition and then Detail-preserving Upscale at 200% applied on the left.  The improvement in the side-by-side buttefly picture quality is noticeable - especially in hte sharper detail of the light on top of the buildling and the "154" on the snowmobile - when exported at ProRes 422 LT or H264 Match Source - High Bitrate.  The still image of frame 00.00.00.15 is saved from the ProRes 422 LT export.

     

    R Neil Haugen
    R Neil Haugen
    Legend
    September 9, 2023

    This happens to any format I try to export, and can be istantly seen in the export preview whichever compression I use. It does not happen in the timeline during editing. In my opinion it's fundamentally wrong that I can edit and see things sharp on the timeline and get a blurry result only for certain scaled clips on export while more detail it's clearly there.

     

    Real world scenario on how I came across this and how this impacts real workflows:

     

    Editing 2160p clips on a 2160p timeline, sometimes I do need to punch in on a few clips fully knowing the drawbacks, 110%, 120%, maybe even 150%. I know the limit of those clips but they look reasonably sharp in editing. Mix in some 1080p clips (slowmo clip with "Scale to frame size"). Final project gets delivered in 2160p. 

     

    During editing, I send smaller size 1080p to customer for review. All the punched in clips which looked fine while editing get pixelated on export and they don't retain full detail. Even though there is more than 1080p worth of pixels on the frame, the export gets less than that. Ironically, the 1080p slowmo clips with "Scale to frame size" look almost like a perfect pass-through to the render. Customer states "why are this clips so blurry?" You go back in editing and they look fine by you. What's happening?

     

    Delivery day comes, and you send the project to Media Encoder to multiple export streams. 2160p ProRes for web upload and 1080p h.264 for smaller size local storage on customer's server. All the punched in clips which looked fine while editing get pixelated on 1080p export and they don't retain full detail. You never noticed because you were busy doing a final quality check on the 2160p export which looked MINT and you just thought Media Encoder was just gonna scale down to the lower resolution version.

     

    Final remarks:

     

    I attach the updated mirrored project, takes a minute to test out, just open, click export and toggle 2160p <-> 1080p to see the difference on the left side.

     

    Even though @R Tarun moved to discussions because everyone though I wasn't using the software correctly and started questioning my workflow before even bothering testing: I think it's fundamentally and conceptually wrong that I get LESS detail on export compared to what I see on timeline regarless of workflow and this may be needed to be looked at. In my 15 years in this field I've come across differences in render when using software vs hardware rendering and I can see why that happens, but I've always been able to troubleshoot the issue relatively quickly.

     

    Thank you @Warren Heaton10841144 and to everyone who will take a minute to look into this.


    My curiosity here has more to do with your monitoring setup. I know Warren or someone mentioned early on about what your Program monitor was set to, but that isn't the whole thing.

     

    Do you have a screen the full size by pixels you are exporting to, that can be used in Transmit Out? That is really the best way to check the quality of the image, except of course going to 100% in the Program monitor (with the high quality option also selected) and then moving around the image to check details.

     

    Personally, I never do sizing or color work without TO on out to my UHD screen.

    Everyone's mileage always varies ...
    R Neil Haugen
    R Neil Haugen
    Legend
    September 8, 2023

    Warren and Ann are two of the most experienced and knowledgeable volunteers offering help around here. For both of them, their depth and breadth of knowledge of the app is astounding at times.

     

    They are here only to help other users, and I've never seen either be snarky or patronizing in any way. Occasionally, the comments may be a bit "clipped", without a lot of extra explaining as I tend to do.

     

    But they are not being rude in any way, shape, or form. For myself, what you're doing seems problematic also.

    Everyone's mileage always varies ...
      F
      Fabio22557433ezjgAuthor
      Known Participant
      September 8, 2023

      Thank you for yet another patronizing reply, not looking into the issue clearly visibile in the provided files. 👍

        Ann Bens
        Community Expert
        Ann BensCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        September 8, 2023

        2160p source clip

        Dragged into 2160p comp, scaled 200%

         

        This will definitely give blurry image. No matter if the export is 2160p or 1080p.

          F
          Fabio22557433ezjgAuthor
          Known Participant
          September 8, 2023

          More than triple checked all of those. I compiled a little demo to show you that I'm not incompetent/crazy and something fishy is going on in the export:

           

          2160p source clip

          Dragged into 2160p comp, scaled 200%

          Dragged into 1080p comp, scaled 100%

          Both comps now show the same frame

          Drag 1080p comp into 2160p comp

          We have the same frame repeated twice, perfectly sharp in preview

          Go to export, select any 1080p preset

          We have the same frame repeated twice, sharp in one case not sharp in the other

           

          https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8chd99jmrv9cqmuofiboe/Export_Test.zip?rlkey=e0ctvbkfeybe51qgyz39stkzs&dl=0

           

          I use the YAMAHA text as a clear reference, since at this size is perfectly readable in one instance and blurry in the other. Are we on the same page on the fact that if I see two perfect identical scenes in editing, it doesn't make sense for one of the two lose detail in export?

            Warren Heaton
            Community Expert
            Warren HeatonCommunity Expert
            Community Expert
            September 8, 2023

            Is the Program panel at 100% magnification while Playback Resolution at Full?  Picture playing at 50% magnification or less in the Source panel or the Program panel can look much better than it does at 100%.

             

            Double-check that each source clip is at 100%.

            If the Scale value is less than 100%, is "Use Maximum Render Quality" enabled?

             

            Double-check that you're using export setting is for high quality picture.  For example, QuickTime format set to the ProRes 422 LT or better preset or H264 set to the High Quality - Match Source High Bitrate preset.

            To keep your 3840-by-2160 Sequence as is, select it in the Project tab and then choose Edit > Duplicate.  Change " copy 01" that gets added to " 1080", then change the Sequence frame size, then select all of the clips and use Set to Frame Size, then push-in on the desired shots.  Then export.

              F
              Fabio22557433ezjgAuthor
              Known Participant
              September 8, 2023

              I'm sorry and I don't want to come off as rude, but clearly you haven't understood the issue and you are just here to try and give me a lesson on vide editing while this may genuinly be a pretty serious bug. 

               

              As you said, pixels are pixels. I've got 1920x1080 worth of pixels perfecly framed in my 3840x2160 composition. I see them perfecly sharp while working in my 1920x1080 preview window. As soon as I hit export, it all becomes blurry, which doesn't make sense.

                Warren Heaton
                Community Expert
                Warren HeatonCommunity Expert
                Community Expert
                September 8, 2023

                Pixels are pixels.

                 

                Pick one of the two options.

                 

                 

                  F
                  Fabio22557433ezjgAuthor
                  Known Participant
                  September 8, 2023

                  I don't really want to scale down the comp size since I'd like to retain the freedom to both export in 2160p or 1080p, while knowing which kind of footage is punched in and how it holds up in both situations.

                   

                  And still, if I set my preview window to 1080p the footage is sharp, since 1080p worth of pixels are displayed inside the 2160p comp. The problem only occurs while exporting.

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