Punched-in footage on 2160p timeline exports blurry to 1080p

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

• Issue - When on a 3840x2160 timeline and exporting to a 1920x1080, punched-in footage loses resolution. Resolution is fine while working in Premiere.
• Adobe Premiere Pro version number: 23.6.0 (Build 65)
• Operating system - Mac OS Ventura 13.5.2
• System Info: CPU, GPU, RAM, HD:

  • CPU M1 Max

  • GPU M1 Max

  • RAM 32 GB

  • Internal SSD

• Video format: Using A7s II 3840x2160 mp4 footage, but tested also with any 4K footage.
• Steps to reproduce:
  • Open a brand new project
    
  • Import a 3840x2160 clip
  • Drop it onto the "New Composition" button, a new clip with the same footage settings is created
  • Zoom clip into composition to 200%: basically a 1920x1080 crop remains framed, in the preview window it is still reasonably sharp
  • Check that "use maximum render quality" is checked everywhere, both on the comp setting and in render.
  • Try to export the clip (h264 or ProRes): if exporting to 1920x1080, the export preview gets instantly blurrier, while selecting 3840x2160 comes back sharp.
• Expected result - I would expect to at least retain all my 1920x1080 pixels with negligible sharpness loss due to upscaling in 2160 composition and downscaling to 1080 for export. See attached screenshot on how the loss is NOT negligible.
• Actual result -  Attached two screenshot of 2160 and 1080 export. Look at the YAMAHA text or any diagonal line to see the stark difference. Remember that the framed part in the composition is still a 1080 crop, so the added detail in the 2160 export doesn't come from more pixels in the source comp.

[Warren Heaton]

Change the frame size of the 3840-by-2160 Sequence to 1920-by-1080 and then set the Scale of each clip to between 50% to 100%.  50% will fill the frame and anything above 50% will push-in without a loss in quality.

You can right-click clips and choose "Set to Frame Size" to quickly set 2160 clips to 50%.

If you must work in a 3840-by-2160 Sequence, pushing in to 105% to 110% should look fine depending on the source footage.  For example, ProRes RAW should push-in to 108% really well while H264 or H265 may not.  To scale above 110%, right-click and replace the clip with an After Effects Composition and then apply Detail-preserving Upscale to push-in between 110% and 200%.  To go above 200%, use Topaz Labs Video Enhance AI.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

I don't really want to scale down the comp size since I'd like to retain the freedom to both export in 2160p or 1080p, while knowing which kind of footage is punched in and how it holds up in both situations.

And still, if I set my preview window to 1080p the footage is sharp, since 1080p worth of pixels are displayed inside the 2160p comp. The problem only occurs while exporting.

[Warren Heaton]

Pixels are pixels.

Pick one of the two options.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

I'm sorry and I don't want to come off as rude, but clearly you haven't understood the issue and you are just here to try and give me a lesson on vide editing while this may genuinly be a pretty serious bug. 

As you said, pixels are pixels. I've got 1920x1080 worth of pixels perfecly framed in my 3840x2160 composition. I see them perfecly sharp while working in my 1920x1080 preview window. As soon as I hit export, it all becomes blurry, which doesn't make sense.

[Warren Heaton]

Is the Program panel at 100% magnification while Playback Resolution at Full?  Picture playing at 50% magnification or less in the Source panel or the Program panel can look much better than it does at 100%.

Double-check that each source clip is at 100%.

If the Scale value is less than 100%, is "Use Maximum Render Quality" enabled?

Double-check that you're using export setting is for high quality picture.  For example, QuickTime format set to the ProRes 422 LT or better preset or H264 set to the High Quality - Match Source High Bitrate preset.

To keep your 3840-by-2160 Sequence as is, select it in the Project tab and then choose Edit > Duplicate.  Change " copy 01" that gets added to " 1080", then change the Sequence frame size, then select all of the clips and use Set to Frame Size, then push-in on the desired shots.  Then export.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

More than triple checked all of those. I compiled a little demo to show you that I'm not incompetent/crazy and something fishy is going on in the export:

2160p source clip

Dragged into 2160p comp, scaled 200%

Dragged into 1080p comp, scaled 100%

Both comps now show the same frame

Drag 1080p comp into 2160p comp

We have the same frame repeated twice, perfectly sharp in preview

Go to export, select any 1080p preset

We have the same frame repeated twice, sharp in one case not sharp in the other

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8chd99jmrv9cqmuofiboe/Export_Test.zip?rlkey=e0ctvbkfeybe51qgyz39stkzs...

I use the YAMAHA text as a clear reference, since at this size is perfectly readable in one instance and blurry in the other. Are we on the same page on the fact that if I see two perfect identical scenes in editing, it doesn't make sense for one of the two lose detail in export?

[Ann Bens]

2160p source clip

Dragged into 2160p comp, scaled 200%

This will definitely give blurry image. No matter if the export is 2160p or 1080p.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

Thank you for yet another patronizing reply, not looking into the issue clearly visibile in the provided files. 👍

[R Neil Haugen]

Warren and Ann are two of the most experienced and knowledgeable volunteers offering help around here. For both of them, their depth and breadth of knowledge of the app is astounding at times.

They are here only to help other users, and I've never seen either be snarky or patronizing in any way. Occasionally, the comments may be a bit "clipped", without a lot of extra explaining as I tend to do.

But they are not being rude in any way, shape, or form. For myself, what you're doing seems problematic also.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

I'm sure it's a "problematic" workflow and only created to show that there may be a problem in the way Premiere handles exports. I would never go into punching clips 200% for no good reason, but at the same time SOME punch-in can sometimes happen and I'd just want to know why should I lose detail on a lower resolution export while the detail IS THERE on preview and gets lost during exporting.

As per guidelines I compiled a complete list of steps to reproduce the issue and even attached a project that highlights a glaring issue in difference of quality between preview and export, and still all I got was some "why are you punching in" or "if you zoom in you're gonna lose detail" like I'm some kind of kid playing with video editing for the first time.

1080p comp with 100% 2160p inside > 2160p timeline > export as 1080p: virtually no change in quality

2160p clip scaled 200% > 2160p timeline > export as 1080p: completely wrecked

Both methods achieve basically the same thing. Both clips look IDENTICAL side by side on a timeline in preview.  Only one of those is destroyed when exported.

Could someone akcnowledge that I should at least getting what I see in preview? And if two clips are identical in preview, they shouldn't be completely different during export? Has anyone tried the provided project file?

[Warren Heaton]

I'm not able to duplicate the issue.

• 16-inch, 2021 MacBook Pro
• Apple M1 Max
• 32GB RAM/1TB Flash storage
• macOS Ventura 13.4.1 (c) (22F770820d)

To get a side-by-side comparison, I used the sample "Export_Test.prproj" to butterly the the 2160p clip (C0075.MP4) scaled to 200% on the left with the 1080p nested Comp on the right that uses Scale to Frame Size.  The picture looks the same exported at ProRes 422 LT and H264 Match Source - High Bit Rate.  The still image of frame 00.00.00.15 is saved from the ProRes 422 LT export.

2160p clip using Scale set to 200% on left and nested 1080p Sequence using Scale to Frame Size on the right



Keeping best practicaes in mind, I also scaled the 2160p sample clip (C0075.MP4) back down to 100%, replaced with an After Effects Composition and then Detail-preserving Upscale at 200% applied on the left.  The improvement in the side-by-side buttefly picture quality is noticeable - especially in hte sharper detail of the light on top of the buildling and the "154" on the snowmobile - when exported at ProRes 422 LT or H264 Match Source - High Bitrate.  The still image of frame 00.00.00.15 is saved from the ProRes 422 LT export.

2160p clip using After Effects Detail-preserving Upscale to 200% on left and nested 1080p Sequence using Scale to Frame Size on the right

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

Hey Warren,

Thank you for taking the time to try it out. I recreated your scenario. The missing piece in your test is the 1080p export. I'll show you my results:

Frame captured using "Export Frame" on preview

Frame captured from 2160p ProRes 422 export

Frame captured from 1080p ProRes 422 export

It's clear as day in this last example that the left side (manually scaled) got mangled while the right side (scale to frame size) is perfectly fine. The weird thing is that BOTH are perfectly fine during editing (see first frame exported in preview) and this only happens during 1080p export. You can instantly see the difference even in the export preview when switching from 2160p to 1080p.

Would you be able to try it yourself? And if so, would you agree that something funky is going on?

[Warren Heaton]

Your 1080 render does look soft on the left.  

Are you starting with the ProRes 422 LT preset and then changing UHD to Full HD?  When I did that, the 1920-by-1080 exports look more or less the same as the 3840-by-2160.

If you're going to stick with whatever you're doing to get this result, I'd export 2160 first and then transcode to 1080 from that.

For what it's worth, I'd never scale a nested 1080 Sequence to 2160.  

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

This happens to any format I try to export, and can be istantly seen in the export preview whichever compression I use. It does not happen in the timeline during editing. In my opinion it's fundamentally wrong that I can edit and see things sharp on the timeline and get a blurry result only for certain scaled clips on export while more detail it's clearly there.

Real world scenario on how I came across this and how this impacts real workflows:

Editing 2160p clips on a 2160p timeline, sometimes I do need to punch in on a few clips fully knowing the drawbacks, 110%, 120%, maybe even 150%. I know the limit of those clips but they look reasonably sharp in editing. Mix in some 1080p clips (slowmo clip with "Scale to frame size"). Final project gets delivered in 2160p. 

During editing, I send smaller size 1080p to customer for review. All the punched in clips which looked fine while editing get pixelated on export and they don't retain full detail. Even though there is more than 1080p worth of pixels on the frame, the export gets less than that. Ironically, the 1080p slowmo clips with "Scale to frame size" look almost like a perfect pass-through to the render. Customer states "why are this clips so blurry?" You go back in editing and they look fine by you. What's happening?

Delivery day comes, and you send the project to Media Encoder to multiple export streams. 2160p ProRes for web upload and 1080p h.264 for smaller size local storage on customer's server. All the punched in clips which looked fine while editing get pixelated on 1080p export and they don't retain full detail. You never noticed because you were busy doing a final quality check on the 2160p export which looked MINT and you just thought Media Encoder was just gonna scale down to the lower resolution version.

Final remarks:

I attach the updated mirrored project, takes a minute to test out, just open, click export and toggle 2160p <-> 1080p to see the difference on the left side.

Even though @R Tarun moved to discussions because everyone though I wasn't using the software correctly and started questioning my workflow before even bothering testing: I think it's fundamentally and conceptually wrong that I get LESS detail on export compared to what I see on timeline regarless of workflow and this may be needed to be looked at. In my 15 years in this field I've come across differences in render when using software vs hardware rendering and I can see why that happens, but I've always been able to troubleshoot the issue relatively quickly.

Thank you @Warren Heaton and to everyone who will take a minute to look into this.

[R Neil Haugen]

My curiosity here has more to do with your monitoring setup. I know Warren or someone mentioned early on about what your Program monitor was set to, but that isn't the whole thing.

Do you have a screen the full size by pixels you are exporting to, that can be used in Transmit Out? That is really the best way to check the quality of the image, except of course going to 100% in the Program monitor (with the high quality option also selected) and then moving around the image to check details.

Personally, I never do sizing or color work without TO on out to my UHD screen.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

I use a 32", UHD external monitor NOT set in retina mode (which is another can of worms we want to leave out of this). Program window size moves around a bit, but it's usually around FHD at least.

The thing is that this is not even about pixel-peeping: the difference is clear as day to the naked eye. 

[R Neil Haugen]

My puzzlement over why you're getting this is because I can't seem to get a difference between the TO screen within Premiere and after export. Unless, max bit depth is not selected for both previews and the export ...

Why it needs to be set like that for previews which I am not making, I don't know. But as noted expert Jarle Leirpoll has deduced, from also extensive testing, if you don't have MBD set on both the previews setting and export, well ... you may not get full 10 bit exports. Didn't used to be that way, but has been a couple years now.

But if MBD and MRQ are set for sequence & export, I've sized all over creation and go what I saw on-screen outta Premiere.

Your testing is pushing things way, way out there, admittedly ... but then, that's what I do with color things, push way the heck out there, to find what's going on under the hood.

And what you're getting doesn't seem ... correct ... for sure.

This is something that maybe a dev, with access to the entire processing chain, could spread light on.

[Fabio22557433ezjg]

Thank you for your time Neil.

Yes, admittedly the steps to reproduce were really pushing this scenario, but I just wanted to find an easy way for anyone to try and reproduce the issue. I'm still not sure if anyone has been able to reproduce this or maybe there is a fault on my system/OS/version of Premiere.

I attach a clip to show what i'm experiencing. The project is the same linked in my last post, and MBD and MRQ are checked for all comps. I used the standard ProRes 422 preset and tried selecting UHD, FHD and even HD to show that the lower you go, the worse it gets. The mirrored clips are at a logical level the exact same set of pixels, but the scaled one gets treated differently during export compared to the nested one.

I know that scaling is not ideal per se, but sometimes it is necessary or even customary in many low to mid level productions. And also exporting to a lower res compared to the main comp is used on a daily basis for review purposes.

[R Tarun]

Moving to Discussions