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質問

Color Management Still Not 100% Accurate on Wide Gamut Monitor

Forum|Forum|7 years ago
October 17, 2018
返信数 15.
12600 ビュー

Hi All,

I was very excited to hear about Color Management being added to Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019. I can confirm that color and/or gamma shifts are improved when "Enable Display Color Management" is checked under Premiere Pro CC > Preferences > General. There is still, however, a slight variation between what is seen in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor and what is exported by Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 or Adobe Media Encoder CC 2019. To the naked eye, the exports from Premiere Pro and Media Encoder seem slightly washed out when played back on Quicktime, YouTube on the Safari Web browser, or on the YouTube app on the iPhone XS Max. VLC Media Player over-saturates and shifts the colors even more. I am running the latest version of Premiere Pro Version 13.0 (Build 225) on a 27-inch Late 2015 iMac with a 5K Retina display. My processor is a 4GHz Intel Core i7, my Memory is 24GB DDR3, and my Graphics Card is an AMD Radeon R9 M395X. Does anybody have any insight into what could be causing these color/gamma shifts, despite the new Color Management feature in Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 now supposed to make what we see in the Premiere Pro Program Monitor 100% accurate to what will be exported? I have included the variances below (please look closely) on a Premiere Pro-generated Bars and Tone graphic for reference. Thank you in advance for your help!

A Screenshot of the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro CC 2019:

An Exported Frame from the Premiere Pro CC 2019 Project:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Playing Back in Quicktime:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

A Screenshot of the Exported Clip, Uploaded to YouTube, Playing Back on the Safari Web Browser:

Please notice:

1) The slight hue difference in the bottom left cyan color.

2) The slight hue difference in the bottom middle purple color.

3) The lighter shade of black in the bottom right.

I understand the the differences here are very subtle and are rather hard to see in a Bars & Tone graphic on this website. These differences become much more noticeable with one's specific footage, however, and bringing these above graphics into Photoshop with the blending set to "Difference" shows the definite variance I speak of.

Thank you in advance for your time and assistance as we try to make Color Management seamless within Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019.

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R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

jarle, Thank you for responding and being concise etc. You wording is perfect in describing your observations and experience.

The trick is to get the icc profiles from monitors to be standardized maybe ?

And, get the video card manufacturers in the same boat re: what can and cannot be utilized via GPU to be stable and reliable.

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

if your source and stuff is sRGB into YUV y,cb,cr, and going out as that, shouldn't you be at 16-235 or something around that ?

I'm just as clueless as the next person, and don't work as a pro colorist or color scientist, or nothin.

It's a fascinating subject for me, cause I am partially color blind.

BMACadelic作成者

Known Participant

Hi all,

Just a few updates for those of you who were closely monitoring this thread hoping for answers:

With the very generous help of Vlad and Francisco, we have determined the following to be true:

1) Color Management is consistent in Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2019 and After Effects CC 2019. This means that what we see in Premiere Pro's Program Monitor is exactly what we see in After Effects. Color management is consistent across apps.

2) Exports from Premiere Pro, Adobe After Effects and Media Encoder are not changed. Re-importing test exports into Premiere Pro and After Effects shows there is no difference in RGB values. This means that the actual export process is not causing any issues.

3) Exports uploaded to YouTube and then re-downloaded after YouTube processes the video file also showed no difference in RGB values once that YouTube file was re-imported into Premiere Pro and After Effects. This means that YouTube itself isn't incorrectly changing the video file at all. (YouTube is my primary end location for all of my videos.)

4) Color RGB values in an After Effects-generated Bars and Tone graphic appeared the same in QuickTime, Sarai and "QuickLook." Greyscale values do not. This is what is causing the visible "contrast" difference in the exported file from what I see within Premiere Pro/After Effects. This is the issue we are still trying to work out. This means that the colors we see within the Program Monitor of Premiere Pro and After Effects are what we will likely see across web browsers/video players. Greyscale values, not so much. I am yet to find a web browser or video player, that is displaying the same greyscale RGB values as what I see in Premiere Pro. This is what is so confusing to me.

5) Final Cut Pro (yes, I know we're comparing one video editor to another here, but this is a good example of the issue at hand) shows the exact same color RGB values AND greyscale RGB values as the Premiere Pro exports when importing the Premiere Pro-exported footage into Final Cut Pro. This means what you see within Final Cut Pro will be exactly what you see in color-managed web browsers and video players. We already know that Final Cut Pro is also color managed and that Rec.709 can be selected as a Color Space for a project file.

And so: Why can't Premiere Pro display these same color and greyscale RGB values? I am not so quick to accept the notion that Final Cut Pro is "wrong" and that Premiere Pro is "right" when displaying greyscale RGB values. Being able to explicitly select "Rec.709" as the Color Space within Premiere Pro and the lack of the option to do so within Premiere Pro (not pointing fingers here, just pointing this out), suggests to me that perhaps there is still something going awry with the way Premiere Pro is utilizing color management. Perhaps someone has an explanation for how Final Cut Pro is able to show the same color and greyscale RGB values as exports, but Premiere Pro is not? And how Premiere Pro video exports have the same RGB values when viewed in a color-managed apps and Final Cut Pro, but not when re-imported into Premiere? Thus far, Premiere Pro is the ONLY app that has has shown the greyscale RGB values that it has. No other app does. That's what I really need to figure out here.

Essentially, we just need to get the greyscale RGB values within Premiere Pro and After Effects to match what we see in other third party color-managed apps. The colors appear identical with nearly identical RGB values, but greyscale values still do not and, as mentioned above, Final Cut Pro shows the same color and grescyale RGB values as Premiere Pro exports without a problem. I hope I don't sound crass in saying "if Final Cut Pro can do it, so should Premiere Pro and After Effects."

As always, not playing the blame game here. Just laying out what I've discovered and pondering what could be causing what I'm experiencing. Thanks to all for your input and assistance!

R Neil Haugen

Legend

By noting that the difference is in grey-scale values, what I'm thinking is there is something that isn't read properly in the data range file header. The old style standard of tape days was 26-235, but currently many devices record 0-255 ... and some is 16-255.

Most colorists working b-cast still setup Resolve to work in 16-235. However, I've seen a colorist presentation saying to leave Resolve in the file-reading options to 'auto-read dynamic range' setting rather than 'apply 16-235'. Some codecs from PrPro come in correctly (some of the upper-depth ProRes) if you've set that to apply 16-235, but some don't.

I don't know why that is ... but I'm wondering if that is the issue here. Something that isn't being set or read properly for dynamic range would affect the grey-scale figures without necessarily affecting color.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

BMACadelic作成者

Known Participant

Hi, Neil.

Thanks for bringing this up. I'll admit that much of this is probably "way over my head," and I'm not sure if this even makes sense, but Digital Color Meter does show the blackest black value of the Bars and Tone graphic as R=0 G=0 B=0, and the whitest white value of the Bars and tone Graphic as R=255 G=255 B=255. (Please excuse any wrong terminology there.) This is true for both exports and the Program Monitor within Premiere Pro. Where values start to differ, however, are in the various greyscale values in-between. This is what is leading to a visible difference in perceived "contrast" between the Premiere Pro Program Monitor and the exports. Final Cut Pro X does not have this issue. RGB values are consistent within what is seen and measured within the app and with what is exported (and viewed on nearly all of my web browsers and video players). Not sure if this helps at all, but just thought I'd pass it along.

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

Neil, that is a great photo of your natural habitat. Thanks !

And also great to hear that everything is going well with monitor profiles ( ICC from monitor PNP).

Thanks !

R Neil Haugen

Legend

Well, the whole computer display of video stuff is a mashup, which is why so many have troubles. We tend to assume "the system" is setup to work properly but in fact the OS/video card/monitor are actually setup to ignore proper color and give 'enhanced viewing enjoyment'.

Start with that, and now throw in wide-gamut monitors and HDR ... so there's various 'standards' different media might be needing. Competitive standards, in truth.

Yea, that's a recipe for train-wrecks ...

This 'enable display color management' option is ... useful ... but not a cure-all, nor will it work for moving into wide ranging needs for media & monitors. For that, we'll need more options in PrPro's color management similar to say Resolve's user settings option. And yea, I'm pushing for that.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

Taking a hint from your wonderful editing space (lighting), Neil, I arranged to build a little light thing for reading a manual I am using for a tutorial. It is a Dewalt LED work light with battery. It goes, studded C, gobo head, magic arm, gobo, cardellini clamp, LED light.

This arrangement keeps the light on my white walls down to a minimum. Also lets me adjust light so it doesn't reflect off shiny pages into my eyes. Works really neat !

Initial tests show no influence on exports. In fact, nothing I ever see is influencing exports. Also, I don't know why such a simple photo of a magic arm should be blurry … and think there's something wrong with photoshop probably.

Looks like the C clamp is about to eat its way into the plastic table. Oh oh !

francis-crossman10980533

Inspiring

UPDATE: after investigation with BMACadelic we learned that the color bars file he is using to compare PPro and AE is an untagged PNG file (meaning it has no color space tag). Without a color space, it's up to each app to guess. PPro interprets that file as Rec709 and AE interprets this file as sRGB - that accounts for the difference between PPro and AE that he was seeing. Using a test file that is properly tagged as Rec709 absolutely matches in the two apps when display color management is properly configures in each. Interpreting his file as Rec709 in AE also fixed the problem of the two apps looking different.

The problem of files looking different in other apps like QuickTime and web browsers is not something that we have an immediate solution to - it's not a problem with Adobe products.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

You are quite correct in your comments. Having been through long, detailed programs totally on color space/gamut/calibration for colorists, I know quite a bit of the general way things work ... and it isn't the way most people expect it to work.

Most people seem to think any one pixel's color in a file is an absolute ... every monitor/screen/app will "know" that color and display it the same.

That isn't even in the same galaxy as Reality. But still, they demand that things behave as if their totally unrealistic expectation is correct. Which leads to some sadly angry arguments.

Your comment about the use of a non-tagged bars & tone file causing the issue that BMACadillac had is quite a good example. How could a simple bars & tone be off? Easily ... without a tag, it's at the mercy of whatever app reads it ... and past that, of the OS and monitor settings.

"But wait ... Rec 709 is sRGB, how could those be different?"

Rec709 specifies the general sRGB color space, but uses a slightly different mapping of tones & hues. Even "base" sRGB and Rec709/sRGB are not exactly the same.

I've talked with people who buy a monitor and attach it and expect everything to be spot-on. But the color settings in their OS are set to 'enhance the viewing experience' as are the monitor out-of-the-box ... in different directions. And they're angry when things look different on other systems. But they haven't taken the time to make sure they have the correct OS settings nor that their monitor is set correctly and calibrated by at least a puck/software system ... and they're even angrier when told they need to do so.

Again ... they expected an unreasonable and completely erroneous thing is 'right' ... that all color is an absolute and should be the same for "any properly built app!".

No NLE nor grading app nor viewer can control the OS color settings nor the monitor settings/space/calibration. That's up to the user to become knowledgeable about and to control. An NLE or grading app can use settings from the user to attempt to ... within that app's viewers ... show the media as close to "proper" as possible. Properly 'tag' the media on export. That's all it can do.

That same media shown on an improperly setup system (which is the vast majority of computers out there) is totally at the mercy of the system/monitor/app capabilities within which it is viewed. QuickTime player is of course notoriously "color stuuuupid". It doesn't even attempt to read the 'flags' of files.

Safari and Chrome browsers the same ... the only browser that attempts to properly recognize video space 'flags' and utilize them is Firefox.

I've had people insist that say Resolve exports material that looks just the same on X as it does within Resolve. I've used Resolve through a couple versions now ... and gee, when I export from Resolve with the proper Rec709/sRGB settings, bring it up in QuickTime player ... oh, yea, same problems as exports from PrPro.

Because again, it isn't either PrPro or Resolve that are controlling what QuickTime player is showing, as it pays no attention to the info they put in the file header.

The user simply must know at least enough to choose a proper monitor for the work they are doing, and have their OS and monitor settings correct for that work specifically, and calibrate that monitor for the space to be used.

Then ... gee, how nicely things work!

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

T

Tummy

Participant

I'm using a maxed out iMac Pro and this is still not working for me even with the checkbox selected in preferences. This makes it impossible to do any color adjustments. I don't know why it's so hard for the color scientists to understand what is shown in Premiere is not what is exported from Media Encoder.

francis-crossman10980533

Inspiring

Tummy, you misunderstand what display color management does.

Display Color Managment only affects what you see on the display inside Premiere Pro and Media Encoder, it has absolutely no effect on the colors in your exported file. I know it can be hard to understand, but what is inside the file, and what you see on screen are two different things. Each app is responsible for reading the data in the file and properly converting it into something that the display can actually show on screen. That is what display color management does - it reads the ICC color profile of your computer monitor and converts the colors in the file into that space so they look correct inside PPro and AME. Once again, it has ZERO effect on the colors that get exported in the file.

The problem of exported files looking different in QuickTime player and websites is completely unrelated to our display color management feature. We have no control over the way they choose to interpret colors in the file - but I can say that they are not doing it according to the internationally recognized specification.

D

davids19419774

Known Participant

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant here, I was excited for this colour management option thinking it would make editing on a new Mac more possible but it made an even bigger difference from what I see on exporting.

So what's the point of having the display 'correct' if it doesn't match any of the exported footage?

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

is there an update on this ?? is it an anomaly or systemic to all ?

francis-crossman10980533

Inspiring

I think there is some scientist color engineer who promised to help him privately to solve this problem on the poster's specific platform

I applaud Adobe in general ( and that scientist specifically ) that they care so much to help and will do that ! How cool is THAT ??

Yes, the scientist in question (Vlad) and I are helping BMACadelic privately to get to the bottom of this. Thank you, Rodney, for recognizing that we truly do care intensely about the quality of our products and want the best for our users. He is an engineer on After Effects and I am on the Premiere Pro Color team. We both worked on the Display Color Management feature in Premiere, so we should be able to help him out.

R

rodneyb56060189

Legend

It seems to me that there is a history of rec 709 and NTSC that goes back a while. An article (linked above) explains it to some extent. First TV was black and white. Then it became color. In order to keep black and white TV's alive, new signal (different wavelength but very close in electro magnetic spectrum) was introduced. One signal is black and white. The other signal is color.

Interpreting this stuff in the fast evolving world of computers ( digital film and digital monitors ( NOT CRT)) has been very challenging for everyone. Test patterns for black and white are different than test patterns for color. PRINTED materials that pro shooters use also have different cards used for gray scale and color, and also other cards for 'back focus' of cine lenses.

This doesn't matter here, because the poster is NOT trying to match what was shot and what the production company WANTS for their "look". He is ONLY concerned with the obvious discrepancy HE sees between PPro and AE using artificially generated "bars and tone" thing.

As far as watching it on other platforms (websites, players, etc. ) … all that can get thrown out the window and ignored.

He is ONLY concerned with the claim that the new version of CC is color managed to create perfect color and gray scale.

I think there is some scientist color engineer who promised to help him privately to solve this problem on the poster's specific platform ( computer and monitor, graphics card, preferences in programs, etc. )

I am hoping I get to hear something about the result of that interaction because I applaud Adobe in general ( and that scientist specifically ) that they care so much to help and will do that ! How cool is THAT ??

francis-crossman10980533

Inspiring

BMACadelic Lets break this down a little more scientifically shall we? You are claiming that PPro and AE are handling colors differently.

Open System Preferences/Displays/Color - check what your display is set to - set it to whatever the topmost setting is, above the line (iMac?). This is the default for the display and will rule out weird ICC profiles causing issues.
Do you have a second monitor hooked up? If so, do all the following testing on only the built-in display - rule out differences between the monitors
Launch Premiere Pro 2019
Enable GPU acceleration in File/Project Settings/General - Metal/OpenCL - your choice
Turn on Display color management in Preferences/General
Create HD bars and tone and place them into a new timeline
Open the Digital Color Meter app found in Applications/Utilities - make sure it is set to "display native values"
Use the Digital Color Meter app to measure the RGB values of each of the seven large color bars across the top - write down the RGB values for each
Export a file of a few seconds of the bars and tone and bring the that exported file back into PPro - codec doesn't matter
Measure the exported file with the Digital Color Meter - measurements should be identical to before
Launch After Effects 2019
Enable GPU acceleration in Project Settings/Video Rendering . . .
Set your working space to Rec.709 Gamma 2.4 in Project Settings/Color - you can leave everything else at the default
Enable Display Color Management in AE by making sure your Comp Viewer is in focus (click on it) then choose View/Use Display Color Management
Import the file you previously exported from PPro
Measure each of the large bars with the Digital Color Meter - measurements should be identical to before

Ok - that is the most basic of tests to show that PPro and AE are both managing colors the same. QuickTime Player and Web browsers showing colors differently is not a problem with PPro or AE and therefore not a problem that we can fix.

R Neil Haugen

Legend

My Win10 rig is running to a Dell ultrasharp 1920x1080 sRGB monitor as "confidence" monitor calibrated to 100 bits, Rec709 gamma 2.4 via puck/software.

AfterEffects is set as per the recommendation by Francis, which has been standard for some time.

Bars & Tone is identical in both apps.

QT is different, VLC and Potplayer are very close to PrPro (visually identical). My YouTube uploads via Firefox are pretty close

I realize for many YouTube is problematic due to their double reencoding stuff.

Neil

Everyone's mileage always varies ...

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