Limits of JSON Data in After Effects: Live Text Templates & aerender

Report · Dec 16, 2017

I know we're pushing the limits here, but AE's increasing fluency with JSON data is already transforming our workflows mightily: Already we're doing far more complex graphics, generated with greater ease and speed. We're almost completely automated. That's where we've hit some hiccups.

JSON files in AE, used in expressions that are in turn used for LTTs (Live Text Templates) in Premiere Pro are only rendered properly if the AE is launched and the proper .aep file is opened.

At some intuitive level this almost makes sense: How is an LTT supposed to know the JSON data supporting it when the .AEP is closed and/or AE iteself isn't even launched?

But the counter intuitive to that is just as reasonable: LTTs are plenty capable of properly rendering the source media and any layer expressions even when AE itself is not launched. In fact, the ONLY files that don't make the AE to PPro jump are the JSONs.

The same JSON invisibility applies to aerender, the AE command line app. Like, LTTs aerender is unable to process any JSON-based data info. In this context it doesn't matter whether AE is launched or not. There seems to be no way to leverage JSON.

Feature request / Bug report? Or is there some magic fix for this?

Report · Dec 17, 2017

You can always hope that it is on the To-Do-list for future versions? I mean, c'mon, it's the first incarnation. That notwithstanding, with AE's crappy expression engine there may always be limitations, so perhaps it will never work like you want it to. E.g. AErender not honoring certain kinds of expression has been a limitation for the last 20 years and if it were that simple, I'm sure they'd have fixed it long ago. Same for DynamicLink, which in a way al lthis template stuff is, anyway. That and of course long before that AE has a ton of other issues that would need to be fixed to really make this viable. So I'd advise patience. Feel free to file as many bug reports and FRs as you like, but just don't expect any of that to change overnight.

Mylenium

Report · Dec 17, 2017

Mylenium wrote
I mean, c'mon, it's the first incarnation.

And that first incarnation has trimmed hours and hours off our post schedule. The fact that AE Expressions leveraging JSON data works at all in LTTs over in PPro, and the whole thing can be managed under Custom Extensions is rather mind-blowing.

Currently we're able to generate all our texted graphics -- lower 3rds, captions, close credits -- in three steps:

1) Post Prod. assists type it up, take full responsibility for accuracy and spelling,

2) An Asst. Ed. triggers a render with two bits of info (Show / Ep. #) and clicks submit

3) Online editor gets an alert, finds rendered QT+alpha files ready for batch import (dobe-to-Avid workflow)

Originally we were using LTTs in PPro to time close credit and make the transitions, but a subsequent iteration of the process allowed us to handle that entirely in AE via expressions and ExtendScript.

So we're all blown away that we got this far. No other system out has anything approaching this level of automation, integration, flexibility and speed.

BUT breakthroughs beget new opportunites drive new demands. If we could eliminate step 2 above, and go straight from text entries directly to the finishing editor and eliminate the Asst. Ed. step it would create that much more efficiency. (Post management is not the most organized bunch, catching their own errors right up until the last minutes before delivery, and the assists are not always readily available -- ergo pointless panic and crisis ensue.) We could eliminate the asst. ed. intermediary step and be even more efficient and flexible if aerender weren't blind to JSON data.

Submitting to Feature Request/Bug Report Form

Request:

Make JSON files "visible" to aerender and PPRo LTTs even when After Effects is not launched.

How would you like the feature to work?

Currently JSON data in AE can only be "seen" by LTTs in PPro if AE is launched and the appropriate .AEP is active. And the CLI utility aerender cannot "see" JSON data at all. Would greatly appreciate if LTTs and aerender were JSON-data-aware, even when After Effects is not launched.

Why is this feature important to you?

Would dramatically increase the ability to automate texted graphics and increase post prod workflow efficiencies.

Questions

Mylenium
AE's crappy expression engine there may always be limitations, so perhaps it will never work like you want it to.

Out of curiosity, what are some of the limitations you're referring to?

Mylenium
AE has a ton of other issues that would need to be fixed to really make this viable.

Same question: By "this" what exactly are you referring to? And what are some of the issue that would make this viable.

Report · Dec 17, 2017

So we're all blown away that we got this far. No other system out has anything approaching this level of automation, integration, flexibility and speed.

Ever looked at any system from Chiron, VizRT and the millions of proprietary systems? And lest we forget the tons of web techniques that make AE's dynamic graphics look like old tech which is even funny, considering that many of those are used to generate the JSON files in the first place.

AE's crappy expression engine there may always be limitations, so perhaps it will never work like you want it to.
Out of curiosity, what are some of the limitations you're referring to?

How 'bout evaluation speed? Syntax issues? Lack of effects controls? Inconsistent implementations in the API vs. scripts vs. expressions? Expression editing? Integration with panels? Access to project items? I could think of a million things here on the native AE end long before even thinking about how this stuff would look and work in Premiere or whatever.

AE has a ton of other issues that would need to be fixed to really make this viable.

How about actually being able to render your stuff? You know, the forums are full with threads on AE CC 2017/ 2018 not even rendering or corrupting outputs or refusing to use specific file types. I tend to think that in a production environment it is critical to not have your renders crashed 5 minutes before your graphics are supposed to go on air. It's in fact ironic that JSON and a lot of the new-fangled stuff have a lot to do with those render failures because evaluation doesn't work or expressions break down.

As far as I'm concerned there is a long way to go on this and while I'm sure you disagree, it seems to me Adobe have totally wrong priorities. On an idealistic level I get all this JSON stuff for versioning and dynamic graphics, but there was nothing wrong with the old ways when at least you could rely on that AE would not crash every 5 minutes. That and of course it's a feature that presumably isn't even used by a large part of AE users that never do this stuff. Fixing/ improving other areas would have done a lot more for them as not least posts on this forum show every day, which, again irony mode here, could include a much better way of dealing with Live Text Templates. At the momentg this whole workflow feels too much like trying to shove a brick up a horses behind sideways...

Mylenium

Report · Dec 18, 2017

The context within which we're working is post production -- Avid or PPro -- sometimes with, sometimes without a graphics team. People use the word "Chyron" to sound professional, typically unaware it's an actual company with an actual product dedicated to texted graphics. So hardly disagreeing with you -- quite the contrary, your insights much appreciated -- but there's no way a Chyron system will show up in our world. Adobe CC, on the other hand is common even in an Avid-based workflow. And even when we do have a graphics team their focus is typically design, not workflow or speed of output. Only by bringing automation to them are we able to improve the overall quality of our shows.

Mylenium "API vs. scripts vs. expressions"

Thanks for raising that one. I think the API and "scripts" are the same thing these days. LMK if you know otherwise. Expressions, on the other hand, yep spot on. A completely different API. I've gotten so used to the distinction your note was actually a surprise. Would be a great improvement if they spoke the same language.

Mylenium "Expression editing? Integration with panels? Access to project items?"

Absolutely. Thanks for those. Worth some feature requests for sure.

Mylenium "Lack of effects controls?"

For instance? I've been impressed on this front but it sounds like you're doing far heavier lifting.

Mylenium "Crashing 5 minutes before air"

Our version is producers running in 5 minutes before delivery waving their hands above their heads in a panic over the 20% of names and titles they got wrong for lack of diligence, and they gobble up a lot more doing that. Automating the texted graphics has been their saving grace. Far fewer Adobe crashes than crisis-addicted edit bay crashers.

Mylenium "Tons of web techniques that make AE's dynamic graphics look like old tech"

In some ways yes. Questions for you there: If we're doing placement, background image sizing, or complex processing a web-based approach offers a lot more sophistication and ease of development. But when it comes to doing something elaborate with design -- sophisticated moves or layered effects, I'm not aware of anything web-based that can compete with AE. Curious about your experience on that front.

Report · Dec 18, 2017

Mylenium "API vs. scripts vs. expressions"

I think the API and "scripts" are the same thing these days.

I still think there's several areas where scripts don't have the same access like the API, but I'd have to look it up, admittedly.

Mylenium "Lack of effects controls?"

For instance? I've been impressed on this front but it sounds like you're doing far heavier lifting.

Not really much to do with heavy-lifting or not. This is mostly a case of minimizing UI clutter and avoiding those annoying workarounds where you have to create endless arrays or even include string processing just to have a user-definable state toggle. E.g. a long-standing pipedream and pet peeve would be a custom pop-up/ list control or a multi-swatch color control. Even the basic color control could use some love. Same for radio button groups.

Mylenium "Tons of web techniques that make AE's dynamic graphics look like old tech"
In some ways yes. Questions for you there: If we're doing placement, background image sizing, or complex processing a web-based approach offers a lot more sophistication and ease of development. But when it comes to doing something elaborate with design -- sophisticated moves or layered effects, I'm not aware of anything web-based that can compete with AE. Curious about your experience on that front.

Sure, it's debatable, but what does "elaborate" even mean? At the end of the day even seemingly complex moving graphics are often just a succession of short motion elements. You could build a complex data graphic that looks rather snazzy and all it uses is still just linear scaling and position keys plus a bunch of linear wipes. This is still inherently simpler using web techniques and e.g. CSS animation, simply for the fact that AE doesn't allow you to re-use external elements as easily. Or in other words: You could create a tweaked CSS animation and then use it for the rest of your life, whereas in AE you still at least have to re-apply presets.

And other areas are catching up. It won't be long and you see more WebGL 3D stuff or complex composites also benefiting from these basic principles. Granted, it's perhaps not yet there, but there are things you can do in D3.js in a snap that would take forever to do in AE. The real thing here is the interaction and creation. I think nobody is going to deny that specific visual stylings are still the domain of AE et al., but if you settle on somewhat simplified, abstract designs you could do a lot just with bits of code in a browser....

Mylenium

Report · Dec 18, 2017

Mylenium avoiding those annoying workarounds where you have to create endless arrays or even include string processing just to have a user-definable state toggle. E.g. a long-standing pipedream and pet peeve would be a custom pop-up/ list control or a multi-swatch color control. Even the basic color control could use some love. Same for radio button groups.

Agreed agreed. All good stuff. I can imagine some ways to get Custom Panels to help with all that, but it might end up being inelegant.

Mylenium complex moving graphic ... still inherently simpler using web techniques and e.g. CSS animation, simply for the fact that AE doesn't allow you to re-use external elements as easily.

The immediate challenge with a web approach using CSS animation or jQuery would be translating it to frames.

I can imagine doing a pass to get transitional positions and other properties leveraging JQ's "step" function, and then repeating those steps in succession with static CSS, but it seems a little convoluted. For all the potential gains you get using HTML 5 + JS + JSON, the CSS animation seems to pose a challenge that would set you back.

Are you saying there is an existing approach out there that can already handle this?

Report · Dec 19, 2017

No, I'm not saying there's an existing approach, but we/ I have been using screen capture software to that effect (and other atrocious things). Might actually be an idea for a plug-in developer to snatch one of the browser's source code and create a renderer that works inside AE based on loading a web page. That could potentially be pretty awesome.

Mylenium