RENDER PROBLEM - AME and Premiere Pro CC causing random horizontal lines on H.264 Renders

[JesseSchluntz]

I just got the new mac pro with freshly installed, up to date software, so of course something isn't working right...

When exporting batches of H.264s from Premiere Pro CC using AME, I get random horizontal lines on screen for most videos. (see below image for a clear example of one of these random horizontal bugs. the line below the logo is the issue)

Tried restarting the app a few times, which gave me a clean render here and there, but mostly the issue persists and it's taking me forever to produce clean renders. I notice this problem less when exporting straight from the timeline in Premiere Pro, but alas it still happens.

This random issue is catastrophic for my workflow. Help?!

[Text formatting corrected.  Please type your posts directly into the forums, as copy/paste often leaves unwanted code throughout.]

Message was edited by: Jim Simon

[JesseSchluntz]

Unfortunately I don't have time for any testing between now and my Apple appointment Kevin. They're replacing more hardware next week, then replacing the computer if that doesn't work. I'm seriously going to ask Apple to send my computer to Kevin Monahan at Adobe for bug research. 

I did have time to paste the problem sequence into a fresh sequence and tried exporting it using both Premiere and AME in open CL. At first AME failed (its been having its first failures in ages since I upgraded this week) saying I had interrupted it, but that wasn't the case.

Old sequence with Premiere -clean render

Old sequence with AME - problem showed up

Fresh sequence with Premiere - clean render

Fresh sequence with AME - clean render

Thing is, this test isn't conclusive. I've had this happen a ton before when my computer is in a "good mood". Also everything worked for a week after my graphics cards were replaced.

[EditorPete]

Hey Jesse,

Any news on the render issues/replacement parts??? I am still dealing with this as well. Just got off the phone with Apple support and they still are pointing to Premiere as the problem. The tech stated that there is nothing Apple can do if Adobe is the only product producing this issue. Which I completely understand.  I know using Software only is the key to ridding the digital errors, but really? We paid all this money for our speedy hardware which Adobe approved and now Adobe's software is still giving us headaches after all this time? Has anyone tested these AMD FirePro D700's on Final Cut X? If Final cut can play/render clean outputs on the same machine Premiere is giving us trouble, than yes, Adobe needs to address this, NOW!!!!

Sorry for the minor rant, but I'm getting flustered with Adobe's lack of helping us with this continuing issue. Seems like they've given up and just calling it collateral damage.

Pete

PrP 2014.1   8.1.0 (81) Build

Late 2013 MacPro

3GHz 8 Core

32GB RAM / AMD FirePro D700

OS X 10.9.5

[JesseSchluntz]

I can over-empathize with you EditorPete. Still no official fix after all this time.

I just got my MacPro back from the Apple Store with a new Logic Board and tested ram chips. Side note: I've been working on my laptop for the past week, during which time I made the jump to Premiere Pro 8.1, which was a godforsaken nightmare, so I'm not back to version 8.0 and having the usual Premiere bugs vs the 8.1 superbugs.

I've rendered a few things and so far so good, but need to render more and don't have time to run a lot of tests right now. Don't forget, my machine worked perfectly for a week after my Mac Pro got new graphics cards installed. So I'm not declaring anything fixed until I'm consistently rendering video for a couple of weeks with no issues. I leave for a production trip next Wednesday, and will be gone for 2 weeks.

By the way, here's a recent realization I came to:

Adobe Premiere - my best friend and worst enemy…

[TCmotion]

We did the update on two new Mac Pros that were both exhibiting the problem. In our case, it completely fixed the lines on export, and hasn't introduced any new issues since that I can think of. And that's having applied the OS patch the day it came out, and working the computers daily since. We still get the occasional crash or bug, but on the same level as before we started having the line issues (which is to say very rarely) and I haven't seen any lines or red frames on exports since.

I can't speak beyond the experience of these two machines, and I have seen posts of other people for whom this wasn't a silver bullet, but for us, it solved the issue and got us back to where we were when things were working properly.

[Boru]

Thanks, I will give it a go.

[Derjis]

This is totally out of left field, and is based on absolutely nothing but pure guesswork, but the random, intermittent nature of the bug, might be the result of a manufacturing defect...? Anyone remember the XBox360's Red Ring of Death? IIRC, it was caused by a combination of substandard components and poor cooling: the box couldn't dissipate the heat efficiently enough, so the internals; as the internal components heated up, they would start to flex, and the adhesives would start to soften -- not a lot, but enough that with repeated heating/cooling cycles, severe issues would start to develop.

I was skeptical that Apple's "revolutionary" single, central fan-based cooling system would be able to handle the crazy amount of heat generated by processors/video cards under load; I've noticed our trash can gets pretty warm at times. Maybe it's possible that the cards/parts/connections/whatever are slightly flexing due to the heat, introducing errors into the encodes...? The internals wouldn't always be under the same amount of load, so that might explain the seeming randomness of the glitches...?

Like I'd said, it's really far-fetched, and is based on literally no actual evidence, so take it with a grain of salt... Food for thought, though!

[Boru]

It does get hot and seems like a poor design to let it produce so much heat.  And the fan is loud, I had to put it in a different room with my other drives.

[jasonvp]

Derjis wrote:

Maybe it's possible that the cards/parts/connections/whatever are slightly flexing due to the heat, introducing errors into the encodes...? The internals wouldn't always be under the same amount of load, so that might explain the seeming randomness of the glitches...?

Probably not.  Mute your speakers because the music OWC uses in this video is... well.. terrible.  But watch once he actually gets the Mac Pro torn apart just how solidly everything is bolted together inside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJX5YQY_4LI

[Derjis]

Jason Van Patten wrote:

just how solidly everything is bolted together inside

For sure, I was thinking more of the sautered/glued connections on the components themselves, rather than the overall construction of the box, though.

Just a kooky theory that I thought I'd share!

[TCmotion]

As I recall, several people were able to recover from the RRoDs by wrapping the Xbox in a towel and running it full blast- essentially over-over-heating it until things baked back into place or somesuch? (Weird, but it happened!)

So maybe we all just need to take our trashcans down to the linen closet…

[Derjis]

Hahaha my friend actually did that; he didn't do it to fix the Xbox, though, it was to completely break it, so he could get a free replacement unit from Microsoft...

[AtticusEdits]

Chiming in because I'm having the same horizontal lines issue on my Mac Pro (8-core, D700s, 64GB RAM, OSX 10.9.4, PPro 8.0.1).  I've experienced this on another Mac Pro of the same model at another post house as well.  Is Adobe actively working to get this fixed or what is the story at this point?

[JesseSchluntz]

My computer has been working okay since the last parts replacement (Logic board), but my current project is simply media organization without time for lots of render tests. Until I reach a month of renders with no horizontal lines using my usual formats (H264, RED, Etc), I can't declare this issue fixed. Plus I'm leaving the country for 2 weeks very soon.

If this issue haunts me again, my local Apple Store has agreed to arrange a new computer. if this does not happen again, I'm going to be calling on every Premiere Pro editor who's been dealing with this issue to sign a letter I'll draft to Adobe and Apple demanding, as their customers, to figure out this issue immediately. I'll use this thread to reach out if things come to that.

Kevin Monahan, I'm hoping you'll go to bat for us at that point after all this time & trouble? If Apple swaps my computer out, I will advise them to send it to Adobe with no alterations so they can use it as a test subject to fix this bug once and for all. Having someone at Adobe to help us push this process along would be vital.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Jesse,

JesseSchluntz wrote:

My computer has been working okay since the last parts replacement (Logic board)

I'm glad you're no longer seeing this issue with the new Logic board.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Until I reach a month of renders with no horizontal lines using my usual formats (H264, RED, Etc), I can't declare this issue fixed.

2 weeks is a good sign. I hope it won't occur again.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

I'm going to be calling on every Premiere Pro editor who's been dealing with this issue to sign a letter I'll draft to Adobe and Apple demanding, as their customers, to figure out this issue immediately. I'll use this thread to reach out if things come to that.

Kevin Monahan, I'm hoping you'll go to bat for us at that point after all this time & trouble? If Apple swaps my computer out, I will advise them to send it to Adobe with no alterations so they can use it as a test subject to fix this bug once and for all. Having someone at Adobe to help us push this process along would be vital.

We are not really seeing any internal bug reports about this since OS X 10.9.4, so I'm not really sure what's going on with the few remaining people (Boru is the only one I could find since the OS X update) still having this issue.

So you want me to "go to bat" for you should the problem arise once more? I'll do my best.

Thanks,
Kevin

[kefirux]

I've been reading this topic since 10.9.4, Now I'm running on Yosemite and I experience these issues. But I can't ask apple for a replacement as there is no Apple Store in my country at all. But I must to say, I have horizontal lines in Davinci as well, where I can't even switch to software only render. BTW, I found a quick way to reproduce this bug: find any Highres picture in Finder, press the spacebar for a quick view, press alt (opt) to Zoom a picture. Every time I do this, I see the lines, though I'm not sure they are related to the video glitches, but they look similar.

[Derjis]

I came across this post by I Just Want to Work in another thread that may shed a little light on this problem:

Re: Premiere Pro CC and the New Mac Pro (2014)

If it is a confirmed issue on Apple's end (HW or OSX-related), that's at least a step in the right direction. As G.I. Joe always says, "knowing is half the battle."

[JesseSchluntz]

Kevin Monahan , can you please confirm that post 466 by Derjis is correct? If so, I'm wondering why this isn't official knowledge on Adobe, Apple and AMD's part, and that AMD isn't officially working on a fix after all this time and trouble by so many. I haven't gotten any notice from AMD or Apple saying I may have issues due to my cards.

Also an update on my Mac Pro:

I was out of the country on a shoot for 2 weeks. Since coming home I've successfully rendered over 400 RED files at Prores 422 HQ using my cards with no issues, but I won't be into any heavier renders for at least a week. Again, I won't declare my problem solved until I've done extensive rendering.

Also, I've been working on Premiere 8, NOT 8.1 (train wreck from hell). Did that horrific beast ever get slayed by a newer, more stable version? Yeah I know, that's another forum thread, but please let me know if you can.

thanks

jesse

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hello Jesse,

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Kevin Monahan , can you please confirm that post 466 by Derjis is correct?

No, sorry.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

If so, I'm wondering why this isn't official knowledge on Adobe, Apple and AMD's part, and that AMD isn't officially working on a fix after all this time and trouble by so many. I haven't gotten any notice from AMD or Apple saying I may have issues due to my cards.

We have not seen this issue reported on internally since OS X 10.9.4 was released, so it's not a major issue at this time. That is probably why you are not hearing anything. Since a few people are seeing the issue, I urge them to file bug reports immediately: http://adobe.ly/ReportBug

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Again, I won't declare my problem solved until I've done extensive rendering.

Yes, please report back with the results.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Also, I've been working on Premiere 8, NOT 8.1 (train wreck from hell).

Most customers, including myself, have no issues with 8.1. It seems that most customers having issues updated large and/or complex project files from an earlier version of Premiere Pro. As a former certified instructor and experienced NLE editor, I would highly recommend to avoid doing this.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Did that horrific beast ever get slayed by a newer, more stable version? Yeah I know, that's another forum thread, but please let me know if you can.

Premiere Pro CC 2014.1 (8.1) has not seen any updates yet.

Thanks,
Kevin

[JesseSchluntz]

Thanks Kevin Monahan .

Okay, so there is no official line from Adobe, Apple or AMD regarding the cards being the issue. Derjis , got any further knowledge on this?

Kevin Monahan , just curious - why would any amount of bug reports make a difference at this point? You guys have a 470 entry bug thread right here that's been going on for the better part of a year. I'm assume most of us have done our bug report homework too.

The overarching theme here is simple: there are extreme render issues that have been persisting for many months, with no real 100% fix. Since I still don't know exactly what's happening, I'm not blaming Adobe. I'm just baffled by the lack of concrete info that I'm sure Adobe, Apple & AMD could throw to us users with some simple coordination. Isn't that what we are all paying for?

I will hit you up with a further question on the 8.1 forum regarding my issues.

thanks

jesse

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Jesse,

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Thanks Kevin Monahan .

Okay, so there is no official line from Adobe, Apple or AMD regarding the cards being the issue.

Right. I don't have enough stars on my epaulets to make any statements about our partners at Apple or AMD. Sorry.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

Kevin Monahan , just curious - why would any amount of bug reports make a difference at this point? You guys have a 470 entry bug thread right here that's been going on for the better part of a year. I'm assume most of us have done our bug report homework too.

The reason is right here a few posts earlier. A couple of users are seeing this issue again on Yosemite when it was fixed in OS X 10.9.4 for most people. Makes sense?

JesseSchluntz wrote:

The overarching theme here is simple: there are extreme render issues that have been persisting for many months, with no real 100% fix.

OS X 10.9.4 (released on June 20, 2014) provided a fix for most every user having issues with the horizontal lines on encoding with the MPE in OpenCL mode - so - maybe not 100%, but still very few people still having the issue.

JesseSchluntz wrote:

I'm just baffled by the lack of concrete info that I'm sure Adobe, Apple & AMD could throw to us users with some simple coordination. Isn't that what we are all paying for?

It's not a huge issue any more, really. That's probably why. I am concerned about people experiencing this issue on OS X 10.10, however.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Derjis]

Nope. I had just stumbled across the post by 'I Just Want to Work' in a related thread, thought it might be of some help here. I'd tag him directly, but he's got a space in his username; the forums can't seem to figure that one out...
https://forums.adobe.com/people/I%20Just%20want%20to%20work

@I%20Just%20want%20to%20work

I'm trying to be sympathetic to you guys, Kevin; I know there's not much you personally can do about these issues...

If you guys are so confident that your updates work, why not put your money where your mouth is? It takes time to update and test these updates; I can't just let the updater run and say "have at 'er!". I've got to test a host of older projects to make sure they'll work properly --- we've lost days worth of work by updating to a broken version of PPro, continuing work, and realizing after the fact that, for example, our C300 footage wasn't spanning properly. We'd roll back to a previous version of PPro, but our projects would be a complete loss, since there's no compatibility. I've got to do import tests with footage from our different cameras. I've got to do render tests to make sure that we can actually export our work once we've finished. If you're so confident that 8.1 will work, then why not back that up? If I update and everything works as promised, then fine; if not, and I have to rollback, I think we should be compensated for that time. That's only fair. We're paying you to provide a service: working software. If you can't deliver that, why should we have to take the heat for that? You can't treat your customers like glorified Beta Testers.

Again, I apologize to you, Kevin. My rants are about a larger issue than what's being discussed in this thread. Given the seemingly strong possibility that this particular problem is an Apple hardware or software bug, there's only so much Adobe can do to help... There are only so many ways you can say "it wasn't us!".

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hello Derjis,

Derjis wrote:

If you guys are so confident that your updates work, why not put your money where your mouth is? It takes time to update and test these updates; I can't just let the updater run and say "have at 'er!". I've got to test a host of older projects to make sure they'll work properly --- we've lost days worth of work by updating to a broken version of PPro, continuing work, and realizing after the fact that, for example, our C300 footage wasn't spanning properly. We'd roll back to a previous version of PPro, but our projects would be a complete loss, since there's no compatibility. I've got to do import tests with footage from our different cameras. I've got to do render tests to make sure that we can actually export our work once we've finished. If you're so confident that 8.1 will work, then why not back that up? If I update and everything works as promised, then fine; if not, and I have to rollback, I think we should be compensated for that time. That's only fair. We're paying you to provide a service: working software. If you can't deliver that, why should we have to take the heat for that? You can't treat your customers like glorified Beta Testers.

Again, I apologize to you, Kevin. My rants are about a larger issue than what's being discussed in this thread. Given the seemingly strong possibility that this particular problem is an Apple hardware or software bug, there's only so much Adobe can do to help... There are only so many ways you can say "it wasn't us!".

Have you seen my response to those that update complex projects in the middle of a project in other threads? I'm very sorry if you've never heard this important NLE R.O.T. (rule of thumb) before.

When I went to NLE school back in the 90's in LA, all my instructors were adamant about never updating projects midstream, especially those with complex sequences, mutlicamera sequences, multiple layers, feature films, large docs, etc. After I became an instructor, I taught all my students the same mantra (I've taught hundreds, if not thousands of students). Updating projects midway through projects should simply not be done. The time that an NLE application is updated is when you are between major projects. If you are rarely between major projects, a second computer can help bridge the gap.

There are rare cases where you have little choice and have a strong need to update (a crucial bug fix, for example). When that happens, you do so very carefully, making very sure you have sufficient backups in case things go wrong. In those cases, yes, you do have to do all the testing that you mentioned for preventative measures. If things do go wrong, you have to revert back and simply live with that bug.

In general, when new updates come out, sit tight. Finish your project. Then do your updating for the new project. I'm confident in 8.1 if you start with a new project. I'm never confident in a new release (for any NLE) if you are updating a project from an earlier release. It's something I was taught and has been ingrained into my workflow ever since. Therefore, I do not get myself into situations like a corrupt project file very often.

IMPORTANT: What I just said is not Adobe's advice, it is my own. You can take it or leave it. Just know it comes from people with a lot of experience with these things.

That said, we're going off topic here.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi,

kefirux wrote:

I've been reading this topic since 10.9.4, Now I'm running on Yosemite and I experience these issues. But I can't ask apple for a replacement as there is no Apple Store in my country at all. But I must to say, I have horizontal lines in Davinci as well, where I can't even switch to software only render. BTW, I found a quick way to reproduce this bug: find any Highres picture in Finder, press the spacebar for a quick view, press alt (opt) to Zoom a picture. Every time I do this, I see the lines, though I'm not sure they are related to the video glitches, but they look similar.

Can you revert to OS X 10.9.5? If that doesn't work, export using Software Only for the Mercury Playback Engine.

Thanks,

Kevin

[JesseSchluntz]

@kefirux are you still having this issue while on Yosemite? I'm not budging from 10.9.5 until I know it's safe.

Kevin Monahan , you mentioned almost nobody is having this issue since 10.9.4, but now someone is on Yosemite. Just wondering how this is possible?

Overall Kevin I'm quite confused by the accumulated history of this problem because I had the issue while running 10.9.5, then had my logic board and ram replaced, and now the problem isn't surfacing. So how can it be an OS issue? Also just to remind, the issue also went away for one week after having my graphics cards replaced a while back, then the lines came back a different color (white lines instead of green). The only thing that's ever stopped the issue on my end has been actual hardware replacement, never OS updates. Am I taking crazy pills or just the unluckiest Premiere editor in the world?

I'm happy my system is currently working properly, but am petrified of having to update either my OS or premiere from version 8.0 because one false move is liable to summon a horde of bugs that will destroy my livelihood...

jesse

[MoonshineMediaGroup]

Hi JesseSchluntz,

I'll sign that letter and I work with several production companies that will happily sign it too!!

This is insanity!!!

MacPro Late 2013, Running OS X 10.10 with Premiere Pro CC 2014.

OpenCL crashes the software over and over and over. So I have work in software rendering mode which stabilizes the software but makes rendering painfully slow.